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Friday, September 10, 2004 - 1:49amSanction this postReply
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The reason why I stopped posting to this web-site is because I realised that Lindsay Perigo is a fanatical nut-case.

Hey Lindsay.  You.  Yes, you:  YOU ARE AN IDIOT! 

According to your reasoning, George Bush must be a 'Mugabeite' for not invading Zimbabwe.  Or one could equally call Bush an 'Il jong-ite' for not invading North Korea. 

If you think that $200 billion extracted from U.S tax-payers for a war waged under false pretenses and running contrary to the U.S Constitution is a good thing you've flipped your lid.  Prison abuses, indiscriminate bombing of civilians (over 10 000 Iraqi citizens killed so far), more and more enermies and terrorists being bred... if you think this is somehow furthering the cause of freedom you are mad.

Another thing that finally convinced me you are a nutter is your support for Bush Jnr, about the most ANTI-FREEDOM President in American history.  Quote from "Reason magazine":

"President Bush and Congressional Republicans have provided the largest increase in federal education funding in history," brags the GOP platform, which borrows the Clintonian trick of calling spending "investing." It praises Bush for increasing farm subsidies and for "strengthening Medicare" by hastening its insolvency through a drug benefit that is projected to cost more than half a trillion dollars during its first decade and as much as $2 trillion the decade after that."

http://www.reason.com/sullum/090304.shtml

"In matters economic, Democrats are supposed to be the party of big government, Republicans the faction of fiscal and regulatory restraint. That distinction is reflected by the parties’ rhetoric and, in relative terms, by their legislative behavior. But when it comes to the executive branch, the sides seem to have reversed.
So argues Jeffrey Frankel in the March 2003 issue of the Milken Institute Review. "When it comes to White House economic policy, the Republican and Democratic parties have switched places since the 1960s," writes Frankel, a Harvard economist who served on the U.S. Council of Economic Advisers from 1997 to 1999. "By now the pattern is sufficiently well established that the generalization can no longer be denied: The Republicans have become the party of fiscal irresponsibility, trade restriction, big government, and failing-grade microeconomics." Democratic presidents, comparatively speaking, are "the agents of fiscal responsibility, free trade, competitive markets, and good textbook microeconomics."

http://www.reason.com/0306/ci.jw.trading.shtml


PS.  Objectivism is now on my list of Cults on my website.  Congratulations. 

http://www.prometheuscrack.com/cults.html


Post 1

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
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"The reason why I stopped posting to this web-site..."
???

From Marc's website:
"Statement: I'm afraid that I cannot ever contribute in any way to organizations, forums or publications associated with or generally sympathetic towards any of the pseudo-philosophies mentioned above..."

So you say, twice, that you won't post to this website, or Objectivist forums in general. In a post on this Objectivist forum.
No wonder most of the people here don't take you seriously!

Phil

Post 2

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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I just want to say that I take Geddes seriously. The man is brilliant - though even too eccentric for MY tastes (a damn hard thing to achieve!)!

I have not always felt this way about MG - my first ever reply to him was about as brutal as reasoned discussion can get (I was torked that he came in here wearing an anti-O-ist attitude). Then however, the bugger comes out with some good contributions, like his anti-socialism "platform." What the hell, I call 'em as I see 'em.

The man's got good in 'm, just a faulty premise or two. I really think that his fiscal arguments against war ought to be taken seriously - don't you all? Any evasion of the funding aspect of war smacks of the same head-in-the-sand "ostrich mentality" that the environmentalists parade for all to see.

I really don't see how mud-slinging will produce any value here. In fact ...

I want to see a reasoned, syllogistic argument for war ... right here ... on this web-site. Do you think I'll get one? I don't think so. The burden of proof lies with those taking more of my money to fund overseas activity.

Note: This is not to make light of the tremendous suffering experienced by those brave, worthy-of-reverence soldiers who fight in the name of Freedom. Individually, THEY are to be honored - and this honor is easily-defensible with perhaps a single "valid and true" syllogism (unlike the Fed's heretofore "just war" rhetoric).

Ed

Post 3

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 11:05amSanction this postReply
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I came to like MG a bit. The issue of certainty is one of basic insight into axioms. (As AR pointed out, just as you cannot “prove” existence, you cannot “prove” consciousness or “explain” it in terms of other concepts.) Someone can be honest and very intelligent, and still not be capable of this insight.

Marc’s probabilistic philosophic system (under “Dissent”) is impressive and it can be very instructive to study and consider it. Still, until philosophy has risen to a more sophisticated level than this issue resides at, there is no hope for a resurgence of freedom.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 9/11, 6:20am)


Post 4

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 12:01pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Ed,

I want to see a reasoned, syllogistic argument for war ... right here ... on this web-site.

I'd like to see that too, but have the same reservations you have about that possibility. Of course, I don't think such an argument is possible, but I would like to see the attempt.

Regi


Post 5

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Are you talking about the war in Iraq or war in general?


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Post 6

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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The reason why I stopped posting to this web site is because I realized that Lindsay Perigo is a fanatical nut-case. Hey Lindsay.  You.  Yes, you:  YOU ARE AN IDIOT! 


Mr. Perigo is often rude, and sometimes crass - BUT - he is NOT a nut case and certainly no idiot. 

He has written many well-reasoned and intelligent articles, he has assembled quite a few highly esteemed writers/philosophers to assist him in his endeavors, and the overwhelming majority of his ideas (IMO) are consistent with the fundamentals of objectivist principles.

Perhaps, just maybe - the nut cases are those that making sweeping generalizations that are way over the top. Perhaps, just maybe - the nut cases are those that blame the civilians casualties of Iraqis on the nation that liberated them, instead of on the dictatorship and terrorist whose actions lead to an American invasion. Perhaps, just maybe - the nut cases are those that attempt to equate the 'prison abuse scandal’ or targeted strategic bombing with the horrors of Islamic regimes - a moral equivalency of the most disgusting type.

Perhaps, just maybe – you should check your premises.

Sincerely,

George W. Cordero

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 9/10, 1:20pm)


Post 7

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 10:14amSanction this postReply
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Calling the U.S. Libertarian Party "Islamo-fascist" doesn't make sense. I used to be a member of this party. I still respect many of the people in it. Nobody says Saddam is good, and I, for one, am glad that he's been caught! Whether it was in America's best interests to storm into Iraq and capture this non-Islamo Pan-Arab Fascist is not the issue in this case.

A long-standing problem with the Libs is that many of its members haven't stood up to the anarchists. "Government is evil!" they shout, and hardly anyone challenges them.

It's enraging that the anarchists in the Libertarian Party have made that organization a center for mindless scapegoating. I'm sure that most young Libertarians (such as myself, at one time) had a notion of what liberty meant when they joined. The anarchists are trying to make them forget it.

Of course, voting the "anti-government" party into office is a joke. But it depends on the candidate. If they are from the "party of liberty," and not just knee-jerk anarchists, then they've got my attention.

Post 8

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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Byron,

Regarding "just war," I was talking about syllogistic justification of the Iraq war (not war "in general").

As a taxpayer, I'd like to think that I'm entitled to such a justification - especially so whenever "the bill" exceeds a billion bucks.

This is not to pretend that, the type of justification that I am shouting for here, is already being utilized in a variety of other fiscally irresponsible govt endeavors.

Govt spending is a terrible joke, a Vegas-show game of smoke and mirrors, all at the public's expense - there are no free lunches, no matter what Big Gov rhetoric is "selling." There are things of much value and things of little or no value, and they all cost $, they all come with a price tag. And the things of much value deserve precedence over things of lesser value. In a just society, this rule would not ever be broken (by irrational appeals to anything).

In short, if I ran things as they are now (in the pull-peddling pig-pen of pundit-pontificated politics), there'd be no billion-dollar projects without airtight syllogistic justification. Zippo. Zero. If this means that govt doesn't fund half of what it has in the past, then so be it: no syllogistic justification, no funding. This is a standard that we all should learn to hold major govt projects to.

Here's a little ditty from Charles Richard Morris (1933):

"No one, if pressed, can ultimately be sure that his argument is valid unless he can reduce it to a syllogism; and conversely, an argument so reduced will satisfy the most confirmed skeptic. Reduction to syllogism is the one method of ultimately satisfying oneself of the validity of inference."

Ed

Post 9

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 3:02pmSanction this postReply
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Linz is right on this one. 

If the U.S. Libertarian Party, including its candidate for POTUS, is mourning the deaths of thousands of U.S. citizens on Sept. 11th 2001 at the hands of poor U.S. foreign policy, they are fucking sickos.  And, I would venture, post-modernist, left-leaning excuse-mongers.  Blame lies at the feet of the murderer.  Call the U.S. government corrupt and vile, but don't imply the terrorists "had no choice, in view of U.S. policies, but to MURDER innocent men, women and children".  (that's my quote...none of them would actually have the balls to say what they mean)  All Lindsay's "Saddamitism" aside--and I will put it aside, because that's where it belongs, ha!--this is a good catch.  Anyone who is thinking of voting for Badnarik should explore this a bit more and wonder if he has earned the cost of their gas money to get to the polls.  There's a name for intentional murderers of the innocent: shitbags.  Their excusers rate as much, or less.


Post 10

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
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This is the website from which the quote was drawn:

http://www.badnarik.org/PressRoom/archive.php?p=1057

As an add-on, the black-clothing thing is supposedly only coincidentally going to take place on Sept. 11th, and is said to "mourn the deaths of the thousands of people who have died as a result of U.S. government policies".  This could mean, literally, anything. That it coincides with the anniversary of Sept. 11th 2001 is suspicious, though.


Post 11

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 3:49pmSanction this postReply
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David Ostroske wrote:
A long-standing problem with the Libs is that many of its members haven't stood up to the anarchists. "Government is evil!" they shout, and hardly anyone challenges them.
This offered me the final incentive to leave the Libertarian Party in the USA back around 2000.  I had other causes related to values-centered time and life management, but a nasty encounter with an anarchist at a local party meeting who demanded I "prove" to him why a free society needs a government proved the straw to break my back.  I decided I could find more effective ways to promote a reasoned liberty than through that organization.  Should their upper leadership come to their senses and do some house-cleaning, I may revisit this issue.  Neal Boortz penned an article reflecting many of my complaints.


Luke Setzer


Post 12

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 8:56pmSanction this postReply
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I'm not familiar at all with the history of the Libertarian Party, but after reading this article and then reading Badnarik's actual policy statement on Iraq (http://www.badnarik.org/Issues/IraqWar.php), I fail to see any justification for Linz to call the Libertarians "Islamo-fascists", nor for Mr. Taranto to insinuate that they "Blame America First".

If I had written his policy statement, I would certainly have included language sufficient to preclude confusing his policy on Iraq with his policy on terrorism, and he should have an explicit policy on terrorism--one that does not excuse it (i.e., the terrorizing, threatening, and murdering of Americans), even in light of the foreign policy freakshow of the late twentieth century (and Bush's potential repeat performance in Iraq). Just as Bush and his administration did deliberately during the past three years, it seems that Linz and Mr. Taranto are, for whatever reason, intermingling what should be nearly mutually exclusive issues: the war on Al Qaeda and related terrorism and the war in Iraq.

Despite the Bush administration's assertions, even to this day, the war in Iraq had nothing to do with the war against terrorists. It was a sham. It was a lie. It was a deliberate campaign of competing lies--who can tell the biggest one?--that got us into this war. That Saddam Hussein was a tyrant that deserves to die was not one of those lies, certainly. That he and his regime were an imminent threat to the United States that justified toppling his government was. The issue is not whether we were justified in going to war; I think any freer state is justified in overthrowing more oppressive states in order to institute a more free state; the issue is, however, whether it was in the best interest of individual Americans, at that time, to instigate such a conflict with Iraq, and I've seen nothing to justify that--especially in light of the simultaneous, ultimately important, exceedingly just military campaign against Al Qaeda, which no sane person has any doubt is in the best interest of every individual American. This latter conflict is the one waged against in self-defense, against the known and verified enemy, against murderers who, quite simply, must die in battle or face justice and die at the hands of a war crimes tribunal.

Sadly, although I agree with Badnarik (fundamentally) that were the US's foreign policy not so lacking in foresight, honesty, and justice in the twentieth century, 9/11 might never have happened, he has not turned the coin (that I can see) and stated his hatred for and intent to defend Americans against Al Qaeda and all other terrorists who might seek, by their own will, to harm or murder Americans--that in the end, no amount of heinous foreign policy can justify murder.

I think this is where the Badnarik platform truly fails. He rightly condemns the Bush administration for (potentially) repeating the mistakes that led to an environment that encouraged hatred for the US in the Middle East, and yet he fails to condemn that hatred's leading to murder (mass-murder or otherwise). In the end, though, it seems Badnarik blames America (specifically, Bush and his administration) for the current ill-advised war in Iraq, and he remains regretfully silent on the blame for 9/11.


Post 13

Friday, September 10, 2004 - 9:05pmSanction this postReply
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Marc Geddes said:
...Lindsay Perigo is a fanatical nut-case.
and then:
Objectivism is now on my list of Cults on my website.

Who but someone from the ARI would assert that any one person can (any longer) be the sole representative of the Objectivist philosophy? The fact that your latter statement follows from the first leads me to believe that you may be the nut-case. Maybe a good try with the old noggin to review and revise that idea is in order. Unless you think that Objectivism, fundamentally, is a cult (however you define that), I'll just have to conclude that you're incapable of rational thought--well, perhaps either way.

(Edited by Dean Hall on 9/10, 9:06pm)


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Post 14

Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 12:13amSanction this postReply
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quote  PS.  Objectivism is now on my list of Cults on my website.  Congratulations.
Oh good gracious! Heaven forfend! Please don't call us a cult! We've never been called that before, and certainly not on a poorly-trafficked website!

Once again the discussion of one of Linz's news posts has been hijacked by people who can't abide his use of the term "Saddamite"--even when he employs it against blame-America-firsters like Badnarik who "just happen" to be mourning the U.S.'s "terrible foreign policies" on the same day that legions of jello-spined sniveling po-mo academics will no doubt blame those same policies for the malevolent mass murder of 3,000 people by snarling, ululating death worshippers.

Well. We certainly musn't allow a nutball like Linz to hurl an unfair insult like "Saddamite" against our Libertarian brothers-in-arms.

Dean Hall claims that the intervention in Iraq was a strategic mistake and a distraction from the war on Al Qaeda. I think this is the only fair point that can be argued against the war so far, and it still doesn't hold water. Yes, even after the war in Afghanistan there remained pockets of terrorists stranded in the mountains. At the same time, Hussein's Iraq was playing host to bin Laden's henchman Al-Zarqawi, paying Palestinian suicide bombers' families $25,000 rewards, storing powderized sarin gas, and acting in bad faith at every turn. Our campaign in the Middle East is based on the recognition that "governments" like that present an imminent threat. It isn't just about killing as many Al Qaeda members as possible; it's also about putting down the corrupt, fetid swamp-states that permit and encourage Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups to hide and gather for their next attack.

There's plenty of room for disagreement over Bush's strategy in prosecuting the war on terror (including, for instance, calling it a "war on terror" rather than militant Islam, going too easy on Iran, handing out sweetheart reconstruction deals to American corporations, etc.) There is absolute NO room for the shameless "blame the victim" mentality issuing from Badnarik's campaign. SOLO posters waste their breath and keystrokes when they rally to defend such Saddamites from that justified charge.


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Post 15

Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 3:58amSanction this postReply
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Bless you, Andrew, for taking a stand against the Saddamite appeasers of Islamo-Fascism. These treacherous yellow-bellies are still claiming on another thread that the arguments for the liberation of Iraq haven't been put. They've been put many times, & been met with temporising & equivocation. Here's just one the Saddamites have failed to address: the fact that Saddam, as you put it, Andrew, acted in bad faith at every turn. Given that even the Saddamites are not so dishonest as to try to deny that, they must then answer the question, "So why was he entitled to the benefit of a single doubt for a single minute?" Contrary to Mr. Hall, the claim that he had WMD was not a lie; it was believed even by Bush's European & Russian opponents, not to mention his Democrat opponents domestically. If they were all mistaken, Saddam certainly behaved as though they weren't. And President Putin has subsequently testified that Russian intelligence knew of plans by Saddam to launch attacks on America. If he were not actually a threat, he had every intention of becoming one - again! - & only the Saddamites regret that he's gone (although they pretend they're glad, the fetid, stinking hypocrites).

One of them calls me a nutcase. This entity said he'd never be posting again on SOLOHQ or any other Objectivist site. Yet I see he *has* just posted on SOLOHQ again. Here is his post - & I leave it to readers to decide who's the nutcase here:

"[Quoting Pete] 'If an extra-terrestrial life form discovered earth, and this life form had a rational capacity and intelligence that far exceeded our own (to the level that a human's exceeds a dolphin's for example), would that species have the moral right to enslave and/or exterminate us?'
 
"Hey Pete, that question may not remain hypothetical for much longer.  Scientists are hard at work developing artificial intelligences (A.I's), which within the next few decades, should reach the 'hard take off' point of rapid self-improvement, enabling their intelligence levels to accelerate far beyond the human levels.

"Thankfully for the future of humanity, the programmers won't be Objectivists (Most Objectivists are far too stupid to even accept the possibility of advanced A.I, let alone have any idea how to develop a safe ethical system for A.I)  Provided the ethical system of the A.I's are at least partially altruistic, they'll respect our rights.  Of course, programming into them the psychopathic 'Rational Self-Interest' imperative would destroy the entire world in very short order.  I can imagine Regi and Linz still blindly extolling the virtues of Objectivist ethics whilst A.I's operating off 'Rational Self-Interest' were eating them both for lunch."

The poor benighted fool doesn't even realise that Regi does *not* preach Objectivist ethics - Regi specifically *avows* (correctly) he's not an Objectivist - but a rationalist/intrinsicist/altruist perversion of ethics, much more to the benighted fool's liking. Regi & he are both Saddamite appeasers of Islamo-Fascism.

There's so much more to say, especially about the nonsense of "programmimg" ethics into machines, but I'm going to take a cleansing shower.

Linz








Post 16

Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 6:22amSanction this postReply
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Man, that really is nuts!

Post 17

Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 12:32amSanction this postReply
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Andrew Bissell wrote:
Dean Hall claims that the intervention in Iraq was a strategic mistake and a distraction from the war on Al Qaeda. I think this is the only fair point that can be argued against the war so far, and it still doesn't hold water.
Yes, I think that the war in Iraq was a distraction, but my primary point is that it was in no conceivable way in the best interest of individual Americans, at the cost of hundreds (perhaps eventually a few thousands) of lives and billions of dollars, to overthrow Saddam and "democratize" Iraq right now, and I still hold to that.

Linz wrote:
Contrary to Mr. Hall, the claim that he had WMD was not a lie; it was believed even by Bush's European & Russian opponents, not to mention his Democrat opponents domestically. If they were all mistaken, Saddam certainly behaved as though they weren't.
I think we are assured now that they were mistaken. In any case, there was no evidence for, nor was there any claim (besides the Bush administration's insinuation that we shouldn't wait for a nuclear attack on the US--a clear exaggeration of any credible evidence, even then) that Iraq would attack the United States. If nothing else, history should show us that if he had such weapons, he wanted to use them on Israel, Kuwait, and the Kurds (or any other internal opposition or threat to his rule). I don't think that such threats to Saddam's local enemies made it a clear and present danger to individual Americans; nor does it, by my estimation at least, make the invasion of Iraq justified from the self-interest standpoint. I'm quite sure Linz would never insinuate that it is the US's moral responsibility to police the world, so I'm still confused as to his justification.

Linz also wrote:
And President Putin has subsequently testified that Russian intelligence knew of plans by Saddam to launch attacks on America. If he were not actually a threat, he had every intention of becoming one....
If this is true, I've not heard of it, and I'd be interested in a source (unless the only one is FOX News).

If Saddam was an actual threat to the US, and we knew it, then I have no qualms with the Bush administration. As it is, I still see a history of lies, distortions, half-truths, insinuations, and scare tactics from the Bush folks, and have no reason to trust them or vote/wish them a second term. (I know that's a bit off-topic; sorry.)

Linz finally wrote:
...[O]nly the Saddamites regret that he's gone (although they pretend they're glad, the fetid, stinking hypocrites). 
No reasonable person would regret that Saddam is gone; nor would any reasonable person regret the deposition of Kim Jong-Il, Ayatollah Khamenei, and Jiang Zemin (and his party), but is it in the best interest of the US to overthrow them?


Post 18

Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 7:09pmSanction this postReply
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Dean, that was the best argument against the war in Iraq that I have ever seen. Have you considered writting an article to develop your arguments further and sending it to SOLO ?

Adam

Post 19

Monday, September 13, 2004 - 9:13amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Adam, for your flattering reply. No, I have not considered writing an article on my objections, though I will consider it now.

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