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Friday, November 19, 2004 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Dinesh D'Souza wrote:
The atheist foolishly presumes that reason is in principle capable of figuring out all that there is, while the theist at least knows that there is a reality greater than, and beyond, that which our senses and our minds can ever apprehend.
How the hell does a theist "know" this?

God damn it!


Luke Setzer


Post 1

Friday, November 19, 2004 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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The responses to the article (you can follow the link under the article) are almost a idiotic. Irrationalism is just so widely respected, accepted, and relied on that i just have to go write an article.

Post 2

Friday, November 19, 2004 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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The atheist foolishly presumes that reason is in principle capable of figuring out all that there is, while the theist at least knows that there is a reality greater than, and beyond, that which our senses and our minds can ever apprehend.

Man, this is frustrating. The atheist doesn't necessarily presume anything. Also, an atheist doesn't necessarily believe he can know "everything", whatever that might mean. He's dead wrong at least twice so far. And then he holds up Kant as a model for epistemological clarity.

It gets worse: D'Souza is actually one of the more respectable media types. People watch him and say, "Hmm, what an interesting man. He really knows his stuff." He seems particularly dangerous because he is intelligent while at the same time believing all this malarkey.


Post 3

Friday, November 19, 2004 - 11:17pmSanction this postReply
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I just lost major respect for this clown. Previously I considered him to be semi-liberal. Unfortunately for all of us, there are many others in the L/O movement who are quietly just like him. Such is the devastation wrought by Kant. 

Dinesh D'Souza concludes:

The atheist foolishly presumes that reason is in principle capable of figuring out all that there is, while the theist at least knows that there is a reality greater than, and beyond, that which our senses and our minds can ever apprehend.


I, for one, am proud to be one of those "fools." There's no evidence whatsoever to back his supposition here. Everything known to us -- by the five senses, scientific sensing devices, human reason, computer 'reason,' internal logic/consistency, etc. -- indicates "god" is nonexistent and Nature is completely knowable.

Altho' Douchebag Dinesh writes completely calmly, dispassionately, and even dryly here, I gaurentee you all one thing: Deep down he's highly emotional and criminal on this subject. He's a kind of devil no-one should turn their back on.


 


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Friday, November 19, 2004 - 11:14pmSanction this postReply
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This is a stupid article and it pisses me off.

I wish I could have a moderated debate about this issue with the author.


Post 5

Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 2:10amSanction this postReply
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Yeah that line really was the worst part of the column, but you can have fun with it:

"The atheist foolishly presumes that reason is in principle capable of figuring out all that there is, while the theist doesn't give a fuck about figuring out what there is, and instead dreams up fantastical visions of a reality greater than, and beyond, that which our senses and our minds can ever apprehend, a reality inhabited by demons and spirits and hammer-throwing Norse gods."

"The atheist foolishly presumes that the real world is all that deserves his attention, while the theist at least knows the importance of fretting about which level of Hell his benevolent, forgiving God will send him to."

&c.

I always had my suspicions about D'Souza... seemed like anyone who'd write a book called "Letters to a Young Conservative" probably had a strong religionist streak.

(Edited by Andrew Bissell on 11/20, 2:13am)


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Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 11:49amSanction this postReply
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This article is too good of an example to go into the normal Objectivist horror file this article needs to be made into a golden plaque and mailed to every person who finishes reading Atlas Shrugged, without skipping Galt’s speech .


Post 7

Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 1:36pmSanction this postReply
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D'Souza seems to be making two arguments here: (1) Reality isn't all that comprehensible and knowable -- at least to the five human senses and the 100 IQ human mind. (2) According to rational and philosophical standards (or at least Kant's metaphysics and epistemology) god exists. But the second contention is a non sequitur: it doesn't at all follow from the first. Maybe the world is truly hard to understand, but there's still no "god" way up high. So Dirtbag D' is making two unsupported claims here. As far as I can tell, there's no evidence whatsoever to support the existence of supersensitive, superrational, supernatural entities or phenomena -- little lone omnipotent and godly-type ones. 

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Post 8

Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 6:01pmSanction this postReply
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What I always found funny about people who use a Kantian skepticism to try to make room for god is that they fail to realize that Kant's limits on human knowledge don't help them. They don't help ANYONE-- Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that Kant is right. That knowledge is limited by what our senses (or devices based on our senses) can perceive, and there may well be entities out there which do not interact at all with anything we will ever know, and which are thus eternally undetectable. So What? If you take this premise at its word, you cannot make claims about this hidden noumena, for it is as hidden from you as it is hidden from everyone else. In fact, you literally can't make any substantive claims about it at all-- You can't assert god, or the categorical imperative, or anything else, out of this unknowable-ness, for the hidden realms of existence are, by definition, hidden from our senses, and wholly unknowable. The only claim you can make about the hidden entities at all is "there exists something, and I have no clue what."

Post 9

Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 10:57pmSanction this postReply
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Seems like someone plucked one of D'Souza's hairs, and he responded by screaming bloody murder. This was bound to happen, and not just because D'Souza is a theist.

It all started when the Brights movement chose their name. Of course, they all knew that it was a reference to the Enlightenment. But as an outreach movement, the name utterly betrays them.

Try this. Tell an acquaintance you don't know too well that, "I'm an Objectivist." They're likely to say something like, "Huh? What does that mean?" You've piqued their interest. Okay, good.

Now try this. Instead, say, "I'm an atheist." The reaction? Most likely, apprehension or disgust, perhaps even pity. This was the attitude that the Brights were trying to fight. I'm speculating on what people's real reactions would be. But based on experience, this isn't too far off.

Now imagine what people would say if you said, "I'm a Bright." I'll bet it won't be long before they say, "That's an arrogant presupposition, isn't it? That you're brighter than everyone else?" That's not what it means. But that isn't what comes into the active parts of their minds.

Some people may never be persuaded to accept or even tolerate a secular worldview, even one that's fundamentally true. But if you want to persuade, saying you're a "Bright" won't get your foot into many people's doors.

I should add that most religious groups don't have this problem. You can't pick on Catholicism or Judaism because of their names. Maybe you could pick on Jehovah's Witnesses for that reason!

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Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 1:54amSanction this postReply
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Considering the intelligence of the majority of "brights" it is suprising they did not realise they would be seen as arrogant for using the term. The sad truth is that few people will be persuaded out of their beliefs by being called stupid. Having said that, it was a brave try at moving away from defining someones philosophy purely by whether they are theists or not.  I have found most Christians are not interested in philosophical ideas in themselves but only as they agree or disagree with their own view of history(Francis.A.Schaeffer etc).  In England I find that if I say that I am an objectivist people may be intrigued if they have not heard of A.R.  If they are aware of A.R.then they will have their own objections to her philosophy.   Many of the "brights" are advocates of big government,welfare state,foreign aid,multi-culturalism,animal rights,gender politics,save the whale,ban the car,etc so our common cause will be limited in scope.

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