RoR: Forum

Maybe I shouldn't be so caught up in your opinion. But I see enough hysterics on this otherwise fine website, and I'd rather read good, solid reasoning based on facts and proper context. Don't think I'm picking on you alone. I'm taking umbrage against misplaced priorities in general here.

So, why are you so concerned with a flag proposal for a country halfway around the world that you, mostly, don't give a fig about? On its own, I think it's a decent design, and upon further investigation of nzflag.com, I don't understand the clash between old and new that you are railing against. How is this a "hideous mongrel?" What should it be?

As it stands now, your argument isn't very convincing. If your real complaint is against the widespread ideologies underlying the flag, be it tribalism, nativism, or sport-ism (Jeffy James' idea... yikes!), then argue against the bad ideas, not against the flag. Instead of saying "read The Fountainhead," make your reasons known! You are not your favorite novel, so stand up for your own beliefs.

Or better yet, provide an alternative flag. Make one that's aesthetically pleasing, embodies proper values, stems from real creativity (however you're defining that), and, by the way, appeals to New Zealanders. Then everyone will want to hear what you have to say. Even if they're not from New Zealand.

Post 1

Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 2:27pm

I fear that, although I agree with your sentiments on the flag, I must say that your letter is likely to be misunderstood.

I think that a more effective way of saying it would be that "keeping the old with new for tradition's sake would be like trying to incorporate a wick for a light bulb, or a horse for the Model T".

The flag will be distinctive, however, and it's not entirely bad. However, it is rational for a political symbol to pander to all groups, that's the nature of politics.

Post 2

Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 2:35pm

David,

I agree with you, that flag is hideous. It reminds me of the flags that are typical of non-western 3rd world countries. I am not familiar with NZ politics, someone please tell me the rationale for changing the flag at all? My guess would be - political correctness, but that is only an assumption.

George

Post 3

Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 2:11pm

I think it's a cool-looking flag. What's wrong with combining old and new elements? I have a feeling the poster would like the Japanese flag -- unless he would object to combining such diverse elements as a white rectangle and a red circle.

Post 4

Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 3:15pm

I am probably guilty of being too hasty in my explanation for my dislike of this flag. It just felt so urgent...

When I wrote about the "keeping the old with the new", then perhaps a little NZ cultural context is necessary.

The "old" are the four stars from the current Union Jack/Southern Cross NZ flag. The "new" however was somewhat of a mischaracterisation unless you happen to know about trends in New Zealand, whereby anything tribalistic, primitive and native is considered by some twisted logic to be "new" and "modern". By that I was referring to the koru element (the swirly bit) which is, in and of itself, not a bad design if you call the faithful copying of a fern frond to be design.

To me, the juxtoposition of the Southern Cross (the four stars, as seen by Captain Cook on a magnificent voyage of exploration, representing in his courage and use of reason the epitomy of Western civilisation) with a raw cave drawing from the age of primitives was just too much. It smelt of the descent into a snivellling green hole that reminds me of the worst that I remember of my home country.

I still don't know if I have done justice to the strength of dislike this flag evokes in me, but I am interested to see what others think.

It is true that I can't offer a positive: "a better flag". I guess that when it comes to the fetid subject of nationalism I am more inclined to strike down than build up.

But for now, I would be content to see NZ retain the existing flag that for me, at least, symbolises the remnants of a civilisation created around the time when the United Kingdom was perhaps among the most liberal, rule-based societies that has ever existed.

Post 5

Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 3:22pm

George wrote:

I agree with you, that flag is hideous. It reminds me of the flags that are typical of non-western 3rd world countries. I am not familiar with NZ politics, someone please tell me the rationale for changing the flag at all? My guess would be - political correctness, but that is only an assumption.

Maybe that's it. It smacks of Fiji, Kenya... of Soviet Hammer & Sickle. And yes, political correctness would be the only rationale that I am aware of for NZ to change its flag.

It's not fashionable any more to impose superior civilisations on savages, you see :-)

<<ducks>>

(Edited by David Bertelsen on 1/29, 3:24pm)

Post 6

Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 3:26pm

David,

Thankyou for your post, i fully agree with you.

The new flag design is a reflection of the nations tribalist history, not to metnion the fact that it's absolutely hideously ugly.

Another grim display from the 'Snivelling Green Hole' dwellers.

Jordan King,

Auckland New Zealand

Post 7

Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 3:28pm

"I am not familiar with NZ politics, someone please tell me the rationale for changing the flag at all?"

It is because the NZ flag is currently based upon the British "Union Jack" and people want a symbol of NZ identity and independence. Some also complain that it is easily confused with the Australian flag.

I think that some Maori also claim that it does not recognise their culture.

I personally like the current NZ flag. I am living in the UK and don't mind the "Union Jack" at all or the symbolism that it represents as NZ is still a "commonwealth" country.

I would rather have that connection than some multi-cultural motif.

Post 8

Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 5:01pm

Yeah that new flag does look kind of "3rd worldish" to me.

A flag tells a lot about a people, where they came from, and what their traditions are. Now from an American standpoint, the NZ flag is a bit too much like its neighbor but so what, they are closely related.

Having a Union Jack in the flag symbolizes NZ's origin and traditions and shouldn't be ignored. If America had that instead of stars it would still have the same meaning behind it, except perhaps that our break with Britian was peaceful and not violent as it was.

http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/granduni.htm

Post 9

Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 6:36pm

It has a Yin-Yang feeling to it. What's the new anthem going to be like?

Post 10

Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 8:52pm