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Post 40

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 12:18pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D:
>I don't know what you are reading, but none of this or the jumbled quotes below make any sense or represent Rand's point in any way.

Seems a pretty straightforward contradiction to me. Maybe you could explain what I've got wrong?

Thanks.

- Daniel

Post 41

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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Are these two immoral uses of tax dollars equally immoral, or not?

They are equally immoral.

If you say that they are equally immoral, then we will all understand that you cannot distinguish between evils.
This is a false choice, you are not distinquishing between 2 evils. There is only one evil, theft. 

What the thief does with the money does not mitigate the crime.


 


Post 42

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 12:37pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

Sorry no offense intended--

I can't because I can't make heads or tails of what you are trying to say. 


Post 43

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:
>Daniel, to second Robert's notion (above), I don't think that you get it.
Does choice B represent "grayness" (because it's between zero value, and a higher value)? Only when choice C is available as an option (only where choice C is possible to man). Under the limitations of A vs B only, the context takes on a black-and-white appeal.

And your point is...? That there are moral grays depending on context? How does that affect my point, which is that Rand says two quite contradictory things about moral 'grayness':

1) that one is acting morally by accepting 'grayness' in human behavior
2) that one is not acting morally by accepting 'grayness' in human behavior

This confusion seems to run throughout the essay. Here's another example: "In the field of morality, this means that one must first identify what is good and what is evil. And when a man has ascertained that one alternative is good and the other is evil, he has no justification for choosing a mixture."

But this simply evades the whole issue. She overlooks that *the alternatives themselves* may be - in fact almost certainly *will* be - mixtures of good and bad consequences. Yet nonetheless we *must choose*. And this, I believe, is Scott Salvo's whole point. We may only have a certain number of options in our given situation, *none* purely good or purely bad. Sheesh, if only we *did* have pure options to choose from, wouldn't morality be easy?! And if this is the case in reality, isn't she preaching a moral code that is thus impossible to practice?

- Daniel



Post 44

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 1:54pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

Ok now I understand.  You are confusing choosing (valuing) with judging. You must choose black or white as your standard. 

 

But she agrees that in the realm of judging good from evil the choice is not always clear.  Often one is in the position of judging between grays, and in that case, judge in favor of that which most closely approaches white.

 

"It is in such issues that the most rigorous precision of moral judgment is required to identify and evaluate the various aspects involved--which can be done only by unscrambling the mixed elements of 'black and 'white"."  AR ibid

 


Post 45

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 2:02pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

I accept your conclusion.            MORAL   CODES   "ARE"   IDEALS!

I ask the             DO   WE  BECOME  PERFECT  BY MAKING  PERFECT  CHOICES ?  or

                          MUST  WE  BECOME  PERFECT  FIRST  IN  ORDER  TO  MAKE  PERFECT  CHOICES ?

I'm with Scott;  make less perfect choices that are in your own best interests;  and work towards improvement.    

Better to hold one's nose, and let it pass; than to cut off the nose and spite the face.


Robert,

Are you too old to have enjoyed Sesame Street?

Sharon


Post 46

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 2:23pmSanction this postReply
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Are you too old to have enjoyed Sesame Street?
No, I found it amusing.

What I find more amusing is that despite your loud declamation,  you are agreeing with what Rand is saying and contradicting both Daniel and Scott.


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Post 47

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
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Robert writes:
>You are confusing choosing (valuing) with judging.

This is to my mind a mostly verbalist distinction. For why would I judge if not to choose etc etc etc...

And of course I would agree with you here:

>Often one is in the position of judging between grays, and in that case, judge in favor of that which most closely approaches white.

Such a position is entirely uncontroversial. However, rhetorically at least, it appears to be one that Rand *opposes* throughout her essay. For example she concludes:

"Morality is a code of black and white. When and if men attempt a compromise, it is obvious which side will necessarily lose and which will necessarily profit."

Now as we have seen, we are forced by the reality of our situations to accept compromised alternatives *all the time*! Yet here she gives us the clear impression that this is an immoral thing to do, that we are effectively giving in to evil by doing so. If you are right above, most of her rhetoric does not sync with this position.

- Daniel

(Edited by Daniel Barnes
on 6/28, 2:56pm)


Post 48

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Which one is the loud declaration?  "Morals are Ideals"?

Sharon

Post 49

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 4:47pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D.:

"But she agrees that in the realm of judging good from evil the choice is not always clear. Often one is in the position of judging between grays, and in that case, judge in favor of that which most closely approaches white."


Which is exactly my position, and which is exactly contra yours. It is ivory tower anti-life to ignore the facts of reality as you are doing, Robert. If you want to exist in a world where murderers and rapists are equivalent to jaywalkers, knock yourself out. These sorts of extreme positions that you take are contra to Objectivism, and also, incidentally, do nothing to convince non--Objectivists to take us seriously--so it damages us from a 'change the culture' perspective, either.

You seem very intelligent I cannot imagine how you got to the point where you cannot distinguish 10 from 100, a spitball from a shotgun. Not being able to differentiate between a greater and lesser evil rewards the former and too harshly punishes the latter.

Post 50

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 6:08pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel no you still don't get it.

When Rand is talking about rejecting gray and the responsibility of understanding and choosing what is white and rejecting black or gray, she is talking your personal choice.  For you personally, in your life, there should be no shades of gray.

When she takes about distinguishing between grays she is talking about your judgement of others.


Post 51

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 6:10pmSanction this postReply
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Scott,

If I try will you again, stop me.  Remind me that you are not up to it.


Post 52

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 7:37pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D writes:
>For you personally, in your life, there should be no shades of gray.When she takes about distinguishing between grays she is talking about your judgement of others.

It seemed you were speaking far more generally here (post 44):

>>Robert D: But she agrees that in the realm of judging good from evil the choice is not always clear.Often one is in the position of judging between grays, and in that case, judge in favor of that which most closely approaches white.

But let's grant that you meant it to specifically apply to other people. Why then is it that when you judge other people you can "...judge in favour of that which most closely approaches white..." (which I would certainly agree with) but when you personally face a situation, there can be "no shades of gray"? It seems odd, especially when you consider that morals and ethics *usually involve other people*! Further, as I've noted already, far more often than not in life we are personally faced with limited alternatives, ones that aren't purely black or white. So such a black-or-white only approach can only lead to either a) paralysis, or b) far more commonly, lengthy post-rationalising about how that particular gray was really, truly white or black...;-)

Robert D writes to Scott:
>If I try will (with?) you again, stop me. Remind me that you are not up to it.

I think that's rather unnecessary, don't you? It seems Scott is perfectly entitled to take this position based on what Rand wrote. The problem seems to lie in that Rand said other things in the same essay that give a contradictory impression.

- Daniel

Post 53

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Sharon writes:
>Daniel, I accept your conclusion....MUST WE BECOME PERFECT FIRST IN ORDER TO MAKE PERFECT CHOICES ?...I'm with Scott; make less perfect choices that are in your own best interests; and work towards improvement.

I think you touch on a very important logical point here. Robert Bidinotto has already written a related article called "Nobody's Perfect" here on the site which you might find interesting.

- Daniel


Post 54

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 8:57pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D.:

If you it the thing do, you are inferior.

Why can't you understand that 10 is less than 100? Well they are both numbers, and that is all that matters, right?

Or than an elephant is larger than a mouse? Well, they are both animals, and that is all that matters, right?

Post 55

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 9:08pmSanction this postReply
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Disappointed again!

I was hoping for a cogent conclusion before I retired for the night.  I'll try Robert B. for a bedtime story.

Sharon

Post 56

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 9:20pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D:

"For you personally, in your life, there should be no shades of gray."


LOL! So if the ice cream joint is out of your favorite (chocolate), you should have no ice cream because vanilla or strawberry are shades of gray!

So, when making choices, there is one moral standard, and in judging other people's choices, there is another? Huh?

Robert, your position is patently ridiculous, and utterly unsupported by anything Rand wrote.

Rand did NOT advocate that people close their eyes to the facts of reality (i.e., that choosing certain courses of conduct which are less damaging, are preferable when no other good choice exists). Check your premises. I know that you are working against YEARS AND YEARS of bad thinking and bizarre life experiences (if this is really how you have lived your life up to this point). But the fact that you have found SOLO means that there is hope for you. Joe Rowlands cuts to the chase when he explains, in several articles, that your life qua man is the the ultimate standard of value. Yet here you are, advocating the sacrifice of the self because you misunderstood a particular sentence written by Rand, and your pride in your intellect is doing the exact opposite of what it should be doing--it is holding you back, instead of empowering you. Instead of considering the issue, you continue with your haughty, obliquely insulting posts.

The facts that different consequences of an immoral action can have better or worse results for you is an important distinction to make, to maximize your life. If a stick up man came to you and said "Your money or your life," I guess you'd tell him "Doesn't matter," huh? Because just like taxation, it is immoral, and just like choosing between the consequences between cutting PBS or government dole, you can see no difference.

This is so simple, so self evident. You can insult me all you want, disparage my reasoning ability, whatever. I have fired back plenty. But that doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. But that isn't even a possibility, huh? Maybe that is a truism in the land where you live, where a slap on the wrist cannot be distinguished from a gang rape. For the rest of us, well, reality is what it is, and those who loves their lives will takes steps to protect them, including acknowledging the facts of reality.

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Post 57

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 3:03amSanction this postReply
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Scott writes
>Robert, your position is patently ridiculous,

Yes.
>...and utterly unsupported by anything Rand wrote.

And no. Scott, I'm afraid this isn't the case.

>Yet here you are, advocating the sacrifice of the self because you misunderstood a particular sentence written by Rand...

The problem is, as I said earlier, Robert's got *plenty* of reason to consider his position correct. It's not a case of 'misunderstanding a particular sentence' she wrote (which is hardly likely to lead to a lifetime of misunderstanding anyway). In reality there are *plenty* of sentences in that very essay that support his position. As well as the ones I've already quoted, how about:

"...when a man declares: "There are no blacks and whites," he is making a psychological confession, and what he means is: "I am unwillling to be wholly good -- and please don't regard me as wholly evil!"

"Like a mixed economy, men of mixed premises may be called "gray"; but, in both cases, the mixture does not remain "gray" for long.  "Gray," in this context, is merely a prelude to "black.""

"Such are the reasons why -- when one is asked: "Surely you don't think in terms of black-and-white, do you?" -- the proper answer (in essence, if not in form) should be: "You're damn right I do!""

etc. etc. etc.

All these are rhetorical postures that clearly suggest the *opposite* of Landon's quote, where she says that shades of gray are actually *essential* to moral judgement! If this was so clearly Rand's true position, why is this misunderstanding apparently so widespread among Objectivism? So much so that Robert Bidinotto has to hunt and collect such quotes to support his 'Nobody's Perfect' stance against Davison-like arguments? Surely all these people could not have all misunderstood the same particular sentence?

I believe that the answer is far simpler: *Rand herself* was confused on this issue. And such is the power of her rhetoric that it confuses many of her readers too. I believe your position, and Landon's, and Sharon's is the correct one. It is, as you say, 'so simple, so self evident'. However, her authority among her readers tends to be such that it can paralyse the judgement of the most intelligent people, such as Robert D, and blind them to her mistakes. They don't *critically* think through what she's saying. They just commit to it utterly at face value, like love at first sight - one of the hazards, unfortunately, when romance trumps rationalism. So, when confronted with the basic illogic of their position, they then have *no arguments* - they simply huff that 'you're not up to it', or 'you don't get it' or that your words don't make any sense etc. Yet there it is, in plain view even for the likes of me, no great thinker myself. It's kinda like the old Groucho Marx gag: who ya gonna believe - him, or your own lying eyes?...;-)

- Daniel



Post 58

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 6:34amSanction this postReply
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Daniel,


It seemed you were speaking far more generally here (post 44):

 

I was.  I thought at that point that I was merely clearing up your confusion.  My point being that Rand was talking about two different things in that essay, she was not contradicting herself. 

 

But let's grant that you meant it to specifically apply to other people. Why then is it that when you judge other people you can "...judge in favour of that which most closely approaches white..." (which I would certainly agree with) but when you personally face a situation, there can be "no shades of gray"? Further, as I've noted already, far more often than not in life we are personally faced with limited alternatives, ones that aren't purely black or white. So such a black-or-white only approach can only lead to either a) paralysis, or b) far more commonly, lengthy post-rationalising about how that particular gray was really, truly white or black...;-)

 

Since you seem to be polite I will try again.  Man has free will.  He can choose to be good or evil.  As Rand says, if you know the difference between good and evil why would you choose evil or a degree of evil?  Choice is within your power and is not as difficult as you suggest.  This does not mean you must be constantly moralizing or nagging those around you.  Compromising a principle is choosing gray.   

 

It is only necessary to say something, to refuse compromise, when your silence would suggest that you are countenancing evil.  A comprise is not doing something you dislike, it is doing something you know to be wrong.  Going to the opera or the ballet to please your wife is not a compromise, going to church just to please her would be.  Working for someone whose ideas you do not share is not a compromise, pretending that you agree with his ideas is.  For example, if he makes a racist remark, you must let him know you disagree.  Silence in this case would be evil.  You can not further morality by paying lip service to the opposite.  This is why I get aggravated with Scott.  Taxation is evil; saying that some of the money is spent well (which is subjective anyway) is equivalent to ‘giving aid and comfort to the enemy’.

 

What others have chosen is not up to you.  You can not force others to be ‘good’, so you do have to deal with gray.  A petty thief is not a murderer, so our legal code must of necessity deal with shades of gray, and it punishes the thief less harshly.  Because Scott knows that taxation is theft, I judge him less harshly than I would judge a progressive. 

 

It seems odd, especially when you consider that morals and ethics *usually involve other people*!

 

That depends on your perspective, doesn’t it?  Sometimes you are the bug and sometimes you’re the windshield.


Post 59

Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 6:41amSanction this postReply
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Scott,

LOL! So if the ice cream joint is out of your favorite (chocolate), you should have no ice cream because vanilla or strawberry are shades of gray!

So, when making choices, there is one moral standard, and in judging other people's choices, there is another? Huh?

Instead of considering the issue, you continue with your haughty, obliquely insulting posts.

Oblique?  Let me do better you are a cretin, literally.


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