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Post 20

Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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Michael, he put the perception of a solid within a size frame? That's a nice trick. Now go back to the quote, he's saying solid is not a fact. Michael go D-oh!

I said you don't understand Rand's theory of concepts, not YOUR theory of Rand's theory. That's why you look so silly. Skimming the introduction of ITOE is the not same as reading the book and understanding it.

Well as you would say, understanding has different meanings in "different worlds."


Post 21

Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, if you ever make it to page 14 in ITOE.

AYNRAND:"Bear firmly in mind that the term "measurements omitted" does not mean, in this context, that measurements are regarded as non-existent; it means that measurements exist, but are not specified. That measurements MUST exist is an essential part of the process. The principle is: the relevant measurements MUST exist in some quantity, but may exist in any quantity."

Gee, no "removing measurements" to see into "other worlds" here.

Even Ayn Rand seems to be laughing at you 




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Post 22

Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 8:55pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn,

You have an amazingly atrophied capacity for observation. You constantly omit context - and this isn't the first time. In this case, you took a figure of speech and tacked on an out-of-context meaning to it, then start mocking up a storm.

Go for it. You demonstrate no real interest in ideas, only in showing your ass. So I really have nothing more to say to you. I seek intelligent discourse, not your silly shit. I will not post anymore to you on this (and probably on very little else).

Michael

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Post 23

Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 9:33pmSanction this postReply
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Perhaps the universe is "too queer" to grasp because space-time is curved (and thus not "straight"). :-)

REB


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Post 24

Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 10:23pmSanction this postReply
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There does seem to be an attempt by Dawkins to suggest that due to our size scale and that of our sensing organs we may never be able to understand the universe.  As MSK has pointed out in large part, our percepts do have a nature determined by the scale of our organs and we must then apply our reasoning ability with vigorous effort in order to understand the universe's other scales and even parts of it of the same scale as ourselves, but far removed from us.  This is a difficult task, but it is one that mankind has made great strides in over the last 500 years or so.

The article really does not make it very clear how pessimistic Dawkins is, in that it does not discuss what he actually thinks the limits of our understanding will be.  In as far as he has discussed it, he seems to be talking about the ability of non-scientists of common intellect to understand it.  On that level, he may well be right that the universe is too complex for most people to ever understand it.  If he is implying that no one will ever understand it, he may also be right.  This is not because it is incomprehensible, but rather because there may simply be too much to know for any one human mind to hold a complete understanding of it.  If this was his concern, then either he stated it poorly or the reporter stated it poorly.  It might be the rare reporter who could properly report such a thought!

Statements were made in some earlier posts above that imply that space is only a concept and that it is really nothing.  In our mid-level scale, this appears in many ways to be correct, but many physicists concerned with the attributes of space with respect to matter and energy may have a valid view of space as something, despite the problems of having percepts of it.  These areas of physics are very much under exploration and the present theories attempting to integrate matter and energy all have major problems and limitations.  Physicists do not understand the principles that apply yet.  In fact, there are many physicists who seem to be quite pessimistic about their recent progress and this may be a contributing cause to someone like Dawkins suggesting that we may never understand the universe.  Well, they may be right, but I am pretty sure we will make a great deal of further progress toward understanding it better than we do now. It is helpful to remember that man is not God and we do have finite attributes, such as finite minds and finite lifetimes.  Let us be happy simply to keep learning more, rather than despair of ever knowing everything.


Post 25

Monday, July 18, 2005 - 4:07amSanction this postReply
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Charles wrote
>Let us be happy simply to keep learning more, rather than despair of ever knowing everything.

Well said that man.

- Daniel

Post 26

Monday, July 18, 2005 - 4:49amSanction this postReply
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Michael, your ideas are cut off from reality. On theoretical issues your process of cognition is floating and rationalistic. You accept various ideas from Ayn Rand out of context, without digesting them.


Change "rocks" to "humans" and you get the argument a Kantian would use to justify the virtues of establishing a totalitarian state.


--"We think that humans are individuals when in fact they were made up of an organic whole of humanity, he argued. This, he said, was just the way our brains thought about things in order to help us navigate our "middle sized" world - the medium scale environment - a world in which we cannot see the collective."


A mind is a terrible thing to waste.



Post 27

Monday, July 18, 2005 - 6:17amSanction this postReply
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"The only real moral crime that one man can commit against another is the attempt to create, by his words or actions, an impression of the contradictory, the impossible, the irrational, and thus shake the concept of rationality in his victim."
Ayn Rand

---

On the notion of knowing everything... isn't the land itself the only map containing all the details. Isn't all other maps just levels of abstraction leaving out details, in order for us to comprehend the over-all workings of reality on our level, at the cost of detail, if that over-all level should be atom sized or galactic?

Though wrapped in pop, and used to draw funny conclusions, don't we have an unobtainable reality - that which is - if finite or not in detail and extend - that can only be interpreted through the use of a model? We can not know that which is, only our perception of the part of it that we can perceive, however many tools we use to aid that perception.

Only alternative is that mine is the only world, and all i see is all that is. “If a man was talking in the forest and there was no woman there to hear him, would he still be wrong?”.

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Post 28

Monday, July 18, 2005 - 7:34amSanction this postReply
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Charles,

Thanks for stepping in. I got sidetracked by once again attempting the folly of trying to talk sense to a troll. (One day I will learn.) You wrote:
The article really does not make it very clear how pessimistic Dawkins is, in that it does not discuss what he actually thinks the limits of our understanding will be.
Not only that, Dawkins, based on this short article alone, never says that we will not be able to understand the universe. He asks a question about it to get the ball rolling.

Most every allusion he made to metaphysical size involves sensory perception, not the making of concepts. His jargon certainly is not Objectivist jargon, and when he says that human beings "invent" their own reality just like other species do, that causes a knee-jerk reaction in many Objectivists.

However, if we look into what he is trying to say and maybe try to put it into our language, it is quite interesting. A good example in our own experience is a species that has no hearing. In the "reality" of that species (which in our language would translate as "perception of reality of that species"), sound does not exist, or extremely intense sound waves are perceived as tingling. This does not mean that sound does not exist, only that this species does not perceive it.

If that species were to develop a conceptual capacity, understanding just what sound is would necessitate the invention of instruments able to detect it - and that would start with a vague idea of "there is something more out there than what I perceive," to "I observe things that make no sense to me like reactions of other living organisms to an apparent stimuli," to "there exists a facet of reality that I do not have a sense organ for," to "I have invented a device to identify and measure such facet in perceptual-conceptual terms that I can understand, such as sight (i.e. images of sound waves) and concepts."

In the case of translating one sensory phenomenon into another, we humans already do that with graphs, sound spectrum analyzers, etc. since sight is a much more highly developed sense than hearing for determining precision.

When you apply this example to the human experience, the reality we perceive is mid-size, and the attributes that come through to our mid-size sense organs (like the hardness of crystal) are reflections of higher "bonding" properties of certain atoms, not the primary properties of the atoms themselves. We experience hardness as a primary, however it is based on a non-perceived primary. Our perception is misleading at times due to the the size of our  sense organs.

That is how I understand what Dawkins is talking about.

It is even a good guess that there exist attributes of reality for which human beings have not yet developed sense organs, just as in the example of the species without the sense of hearing. Will we one day understand them? I think so, but such aspects will involve a great deal of conceptual work and inventing of instruments.

That is one of the magical (in the metaphorical sense) attributes of concepts - they allow us to understand what we cannot discern otherwise through our senses.

The other possibility I mentioned, which I believe is hinted at in the article, is to physically alter a brain and sense organs to have a more micro or macro perception, or to encounter a life form that does.

(There already exists a small example of such life form in the everyday experience of practically all humans - dogs. They have many more smell points in their noses than human beings do - and notice that they have no adverse reaction to bad smells other than indifferent rejection - they do not even vomit from an extremely intense stench.)

The real objection I have with Dawkins at this point is with his jargon, not with his ideas in themselves - which are fascinating. As I said, though, I am not that familiar with his work.

Michael

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Post 29

Monday, July 18, 2005 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
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Queer huh? Sooo is the "Big Bang" now the "Big Outing?"

All I know is - Universe you look "Faaaabulous!!!"

(Edited by gary williams on 7/18, 2:55pm)

(Edited by gary williams on 7/18, 2:56pm)


Post 30

Monday, July 18, 2005 - 4:57pmSanction this postReply
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MSK, we are the same page in how we understand our mid-scale and sense limitations affecting how we acquire knowledge through the development of concepts and by extending our senses.

Of course, dogs also hear frequencies humans do not.  Birds and insects see UV radiation we do not see.  Despite this, we have managed to learn about these things.

Technically, I would say that Dawkin's claim that most of a solid is empty space is a gross over-simplification.  I expect he knows this but uses it anyway for its drama, as do many others.  The space between the very dense mass and charge of the nuclei is filled with the much less mass-dense electrons, which nonetheless, have a substantially dense charge distribution.  It is not really correct to call this empty space.  Even the space between galaxies has been found to be occupied by high energy particles and radiation, so it is not exactly empty either.  It is relatively empty, however.


Post 31

Monday, July 18, 2005 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
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Could it be that so many condemn this life and this universe in favor of a mystical after-life because they do not want to understand this complicated, and therefore queer, universe?  Is this a manifestation of the same aversion that too many feel for those whose sexuality is puzzlingly different from their own?

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Post 32

Monday, July 18, 2005 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
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Charles, you ask good questions. Here is my take.

I think that many people believe in an afterlife because they are very uncomfortable with one aspect of this universe we live in - their own mortality. They don't want to die. Reality does not cooperate with that wish. They invent a new reality. (The basis is fear.)

On sexuality prejudice, here I think that a mentality that succumbs to such prejudice would tend only to care about the universe the way he/she thinks it should be, not the way it is. The basis here is a non-willingness to think - wanting to take the easy way out - and maybe an inflated self-concept (hiding, of course, a bottomless hole of insecurity). This leads to mule-headedness.

Michael


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Post 33

Monday, July 18, 2005 - 9:34pmSanction this postReply
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Michael Stuart Kelly -  But why do they fear death so much that they will invest so much effort to downplay the very value of the life that they are so upset about being so finite?  Of course, I am asking this as though they were rational and objective.  It just baffles me that so many people can so easily convince themselves that there is a way to escape reality.  I really only understand my own mind.  That of most other people is a complete puzzle.  It would offer me no solace for a short life whatsoever to invent a God and an afterlife when I knew that I had invented it.  How utterly weird that idea is.

Post 34

Monday, July 18, 2005 - 10:24pmSanction this postReply
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Charles,
It would offer me no solace for a short life whatsoever to invent a God and an afterlife when I knew that I had invented it.  How utterly weird that idea is.
Bingo.

It helps the fearful when this problem is sidestepped, when the idea of God and afterlife comes from others. No need to think at all, just believe..

Wonderful observation, though.

Michael


Post 35

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:50amSanction this postReply
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"It just baffles me that so many people can so easily convince themselves that there is a way to escape reality. I really only understand my own mind. That of most other people is a complete puzzle."

Wow, Charles.

This quote could have come word for word out of my own head at least a thousand times. Sometimes I think some people try really hard to make the irrational seem rational just for the annoyance factor. Or they're really bored with themselves and the only thing fun to them is play "opposites" with reality. I'm not sure irrational people are really "afraid". Just damned obstinate. People don't like to be fooled. If they take a stance, no matter how silly, they'll rationalize it to infinity rather than admit they were every wrong about it in the first place. And repeating something to yourself enough times makes it seem real. People can be their own cult of one.

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