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Post 0

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 1:39pmSanction this postReply
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How can we be sure that the two are related?

Would those Iraqi Shiites be educated enough to read his articles in English anyway?


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Post 1

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 2:03pmSanction this postReply
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Marcus,

Vincent was last seen being abducted into a police vehicle matching the description of the police death-squad vehicle in his Op-Ed.

Iraq is a former British protectorate. All educated Iraqis, including Islamist leaders, read and understand English. The New York Times has circulated widely since the start of the American intervention, and is read by all politicians, including Islamists in Basra.

(Edited by Adam Reed
on 8/03, 2:07pm)


Post 2

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 2:18pmSanction this postReply
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Oh I see.

Truly tragic then! I hope his murderers can be brought to justice!


Post 3

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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Animals.

Democracy can never thrive without the will of people to stand up against tyrrany and for freedom. Islam is antithetical to freedom. Therefore, democracy in the Middle East is a wasted experiment.

Post 4

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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Democracy can never thrive without the will of people to stand up against tyrrany and for freedom. Islam is antithetical to freedom. Therefore, democracy in the Middle East is a wasted experiment.
I think the problem is a little too much democracy for too long. There's just a damn lot of people over there that just want to kill people who say and do things they don't particularly like.

---Landon


Post 5

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 6:16pmSanction this postReply
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There's just a damn lot of people over there that just want to kill people who say and do things they don't particularly like.
 
Correction:

There's a damn lot of religious fanatics over there that just want to kill people and die themselves in the process.

However, there are far more people over there that want to live and let live. And those are the ones worth saving


Post 6

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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Yes they are worth saving.  Religious fanatics are people too. And I'm going by the literal meaning of democracy.

A better way of putting it is that they need rights, protetction and freedom.

---Landon



Post 7

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 7:45pmSanction this postReply
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Scott-Democracy IS government by the will of the people and it can easily survive in the middle east. Just take a look at democracy in action in Nigeria and other places. Mobacracy is perfect for Islamic republics in that it's not a drastic change for them. What they need is a government that protects individual rights.

Post 8

Wednesday, August 3, 2005 - 8:54pmSanction this postReply
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Anyone who says "Most Muslims are good people -- it's only the radicals who are a problem," and "Islam is mostly a religion of peace," etc., has a hand in the murder of Steven Vincent. Maybe you clever bastards and slick liars should try telling the truth once in a while.

Post 9

Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 1:02amSanction this postReply
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I agree, Democracy can and will survive in Iraq, but it will be the Democracy of Jihadists, because they are the majority. Many dictators or elite regimes around the world have employed some such sort of democracy as long as they were the majority. Democracy is no synonym for liberty and the thought of liberty is exactly what those people lack.

You can teach them to vote, but we can't teach them to think or teach them any values of the West. They have to find them on their own and this is what is truly worrying.


Post 10

Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 1:17amSanction this postReply
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A brief summary of events and tribute to Steven Vincent has been posted at National Review, where he was a contributor.

Freedom's Reporter

(Edited by Andrew Bissell on 8/04, 1:17am)


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Post 11

Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 5:37amSanction this postReply
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Andre wrote:

"Anyone who says "Most Muslims are good people -- it's only the radicals who are a problem," and "Islam is mostly a religion of peace," etc., has a hand in the murder of Steven Vincent. Maybe you clever bastards and slick liars should try telling the truth once in a while."

This weekend I will be playing cricket with and against more than a dozen blokes from Pakistan, most of whom are Muslims and all of whom are cheery, happy, fantastic people. This being the case, the idea that I had a hand in Steven Vincent's murder (because I have found these these guys to be great blokes) is offensive in the extreme.

Yes, Islam is a load of old cobblers. But not everybody adsorbs it's tenets to the same degree. Therefore the statement that "most Muslims are good people" is perfectly reasonable, rational, and - in my experience - perfectly true.

So as far as I'm concerned Andre, you can go fuck yourself.

(Edited by Robert Winefield on 8/04, 5:43am)


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Post 12

Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 6:18amSanction this postReply
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Robert W,

The man who introduced me to motion picture production, Fauzi Mansur, is Palestinian living in Brazil. He never murdered anyone nor did he support those who did. He did not like being singled out for racist attacks either.

His gripe against what happened in Israel was stated something like the following:

If one country conquers another or there is an international treaty to change the status of a country, establishing a new one, OK. Set up the new laws and get on with it. But to mark a boundary and then physically push all the previous inhabitants off to the other side is wrong.

He was galled by the fact that all his father worked for, the property he had accumulated and owned, was confiscated in the changeover.

Frankly that would piss me off too.

Nothing Fauzi ever told me had anything at all to do with the Muslim hate now flying around.

So let me second you. I think bad ideas need to be fought with better ones and guns/bombs need to be fought with guns/bombs. Those who would foster hate for the purpose of hate (regardless of the "agenda") can go fuck themselves.

Michael


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Post 13

Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 10:19amSanction this postReply
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Robert Winefield writes:
 
This weekend I will be playing cricket with and against more than a dozen blokes from Pakistan, most of whom are Muslims and all of whom are cheery, happy, fantastic people. This being the case, the idea that I had a hand in Steven Vincent's murder (because I have found these these guys to be great blokes) is offensive in the extreme.

Yes, Islam is a load of old cobblers. But not everybody adsorbs it's tenets to the same degree. Therefore the statement that "most Muslims are good people" is perfectly reasonable, rational, and - in my experience - perfectly true.
Any fair assessment would have to say most communists, nazis, klansmen, rapists, circumcisionists, voodooists, and Satan-worshippers are good people too. In a way.
 
The main issue here is ideology. The main issue here, for anyone semi-civilized, is precisely what these people stand for and advance, and who and what they support.
 
I think it's fair to say that only a handful of Muslims are truly appalled by, and in strong opposition to, 9/11. Yet virtually all Jews, Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists are. As far as Muslims being decent people -- at least on the surface, and while civilized Westerners are watching -- well, maybe the extremely Westernized, highly educated, middle class, non-practicing ones are. Plus a small minority of upper-crust Turks and Lebanese and Druse, and a smattering of odd perverse others.
 
For far the majority of Muslims today, Stalin and Hitler are heroes they look up too. America and Bush are utterly reviled. Osama, however, is secretly admired or adored by virtually the whole lot of them. Their hearts grow warm, and their eyes grow soft and wistful at the very idea of him. They tremuously yearn for nothing more than that this larger-than-life Islamic legend and Muslim folk hero strike yet again and "give the West what it deserves."
 
Maybe all you people with Muslim friends should look below the surface for a few nano-seconds. Let's keep it simple: Ask them what they think of Osama and 9/11. If you dare. Then feel the social awkwardness and embarrassment. Listen to them wax philosophical and ambiguous -- they who never do so otherwise. If anyone out there actually cares about TRUTH and the real nature of today's Muslims -- this will tell you all you all need to know.
 
As even the oh-so-lame Christian bible puts it: "All who have eyes, let them see. All who have ears, let them hear."  


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Post 14

Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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I have a great idea, Andre.

Why don't we really look below the surface and kill (or at least enslave) everybody who does not belong to your fucking race?

Or why don't we make them sign a religious censorship pledge to stay out of... out of... hmmmm... gotta do something with all these evil bastards and scum until they can be killed off...

I've got it. Concentration camps!

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 8/04, 1:14pm)


Post 15

Thursday, August 4, 2005 - 8:59pmSanction this postReply
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Michael Stuart Kelly opposes Nazism. Michael Stuart Kelly opposes Germans.  Sounds about right.  According to Michael,  Muslim = Arab. Tell that to  Ibn Warraq.


Post 16

Friday, August 5, 2005 - 8:51amSanction this postReply
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Of course I mean s Constitutional Democracy along the lines of what we have here, where man's rights CANNOT be taken away by a MOB.

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Post 17

Friday, August 5, 2005 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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Wayne,

Michael Stuart Kelly opposes racism in all shapes, manners and forms. Michael Stuart Kelly also opposes hate mongers and fanatics who scapegoat the "REAL ENEMY" as they see it, which for some strange reason changes over generations. One time it is Jews. Then it is Germans and Japanese. Then it is Communists. Then it is Muslims. Or Americans. Or mystics. Or altruists. Or those at ARI. Or those at Solo. Or any group whatsoever.

The real enemy is bad ideas. Period. Bad ideas must be fought with good ideas, not other bad ideas.

Like your own misguided piss-poor post, for instance. And Andre's insistence on insinuating murder by profiling people.

I'll have none of it.

Learn the ideas that need to be changed, if making a difference is really important to you instead of spewing out nonsense, and think about how to spread those ideas. Like making a popular rational hero acceptable to the Islamic culture. That would work wonders in getting the proper ideas to the younger people (who, but the way, are the ones who blow themselves up in fanatical bliss because their "heroes" told them to). There are many ways.

Of course, there's always murder of an entire people. That apparently solves the issue in the mind of small spirits - but actually solves nothing. It just repeats the same mistake.

Michael

Post 18

Friday, August 5, 2005 - 2:13pmSanction this postReply
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Michael's posts don't offer much in the way of balance, fairness, rationality, or even coherence. Still, it may be possible to glean an insight or two.

Evidently, telling the truth about mainstream Islam and moderate Muslims is truly terrifying to most Objectivists and non-Objectivists. They suppose that once reality is acknowledged here -- and the ubiquitous PC BS discarded -- then the only apt response to these horrors is indiscriminate mass-murder. They're accidently making one hell of a psychological confession here.

But telling the truth about Islam -- or anything else -- doesn't automatically lead to genocide. Now, as for morally sanctioning Muslims by saying these are good guys with a fine peaceful ideology....This is an utter disaster.

Michael also briefly mentioned concentration camps. Well, that's what we have right now in Guantanamo. And I defy anyone to mention a single ARI, TOC, or SOLO Objectivist who hates and condemns these camps even a fraction as much as I do. Every last one of those Muslims in Abu Graib, X-Ray, etc.deserve their Constitutional, Geneva Convention, and military code rights. Every last one of them deserves to know the charges against him, have access to evidence and lawyers, and the opportunity to promptly reply to them in a just court.

If not -- then Bush, Chaney, Rumsfield, and the whole criminal lot of these "legal blackhole" vermin deserve a full taste of their own medicine. If I was in charge they'd all be tossed in the clink and forced to rot away the rest of their miserable existences behind bars. With all their PC lies and rank law violations against sometimes-innocent Muslims, they're true enemies of America and freedom. These anti-Western clowns inspire the terrorists to murder almost every day.

In the end, the answer is simple: Tell the truth about mainstream Islam and moderate Muslims ALWAYS and render justice to both ALWAYS.     


Post 19

Friday, August 5, 2005 - 2:27pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, I appreciate your position.

But what if it turns out that collectivism, hatred of non-Muslims, sanctioning of the slaughter of non-Muslims, are PRIMARIES of those who adhere to Islam?

What if this is true of even 50% of Muslims?

I cannot believe, after what has happened in Britain, that MANY MANY MANY Muslims did not have a really very good idea that those rotten fellows were up to something. And nothing was reported, either the first or second time. Why? Because Muslims thugs use OUR OWN freedoms against us--claiming religious persecution if they are not allowed to beat schoolgirls in France who refuse to wear veils, for instance. These situations make one really appreciate the 'for us or against us' Bush speech.

I am not for lumping all Muslims into the terrorist basket. But maybe it is time for a showing of solidarity and loyalty for Western Muslims. Maybe it is time for forced integration into Western society. Maybe to is time for loyalty oaths. Maybe it is time for forced English French or German-speaking, and forced non-Muslim schooling. Maybe it is time for those who are literally defined by their relationship with Islam to be deported.

Evidence is mounting that Muslims are either 'with' the terrorists ideologically, or are too afraid to help the Western countries that allow them their freedom and fortune.

Find a Muslim hero they can embrace? They have several, the jackasses who died martyrs. Islam is antithetical to the ideals you want Muslims to herald in a hero. Muslims to herald such a hero would risk being shot, beheaded, etc.

You cannot reason with someone to whom reason is not a value, a virtue. You can wipe your ass with good ideas, if the other side is resistant to even considering them.

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