About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3


Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Post 60

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 3:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andy: "To let the agreement or disagreement of theists determine what ideas merit scientific consideration does not strike me as very Objectivist."

Rich: "The reason concern is warranted in this case is because ID is being used by the religous right as a tool for gaining toehold; it is a part of a broader strategy.  It has virtually nothing to do with the theory itself. If the RWF'ers<tm> thought they had an equally good shot at getting Genesis into the curriculum, they would- that's what they fucking want in the first place."

Why is that surprising, Rich?  The Marxists want their tripe in the public school cirriculum, as do the feminists, the human secularists, the environmentalists, and the French for all I know.  If a Baptist is being coerced by the state to fund a school, which his children must then attend under penalty of law (unless he can afford to send them elsewhere), why shouldn't he campaign to have his beliefs taught at the school he paid for?

As an Objectivist I understand the injustice and sympathize with our Baptist, even if I don't share his beliefs.  I am not going to denigrate him for demanding the same control I also demand over what is taught to my children.  The real evil is not ID.  It is state education.  It is coercive and punitive, and in the hands of featherbedding unionized teachers it is now corrupt.  So I think the anger at theists is misplaced.  I'm sure the state loves it though.  The dispute keeps us divided while the state keeps its iron grip on our tax dollars and the education of our children.

Andy


Post 61

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 6:42amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rich,

----------------
This is about market share. It is a brilliant, effective strategy, on a number of levels.
----------------

In the past, I have agreed with the libertarian likes of Robert and Rick -- but you seem to be on to something even deeper than they (ie. you've "converted" me).

Robert and Rick, you are both correct that government schooling is anti-value and anti-life, though you've only implicitly alluded to this conclusion -- rather than explicitly stating it. To you guys, government education is like a fire cooking us -- and, for you guys, getting out of the fire BY JUMPING INTO THE FRYING PAN ... is a pointless thing as we're getting cooked either way.

But what if this ID thing is not taken in isolation, but integrated with appeal to our current presidential dynamics? What about Rich's idea of an ingeniusly-contrived slippery slope?

By the way, would you guys also claim that reducing taxes from 30% to 20% is neither here nor there (because it's also a frying pan & fire dynamic)?

Believe me, I was WITH YOU regarding the contrasting views thing (truth shines brighter against falsity). But Rich has just scared the hell out of me. I fear (and think it's reasonable to fear) a palatable Straussian undercurrent in our current administration / legislation. Discover -- or remember -- what Strauss said about religion and statism. It's some damn scary stuff.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 8/16, 6:45am)


Post 62

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 7:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thank you, Ed.

I don't raise red flags unless I'm worried about having my ass shot off. They come after the intellectuals first, you know. Writers and musicians definitely are on the "A" list.

Not everyone is able to be highly proactive with social justice issues. I have to pick my battles very carefully, and then do what is realistic for me. Family and work always come first. I think most of us are like this.

That being said, a couple of ideas:

SOLO is an intellectual forum, and it is somewhat unique in that it has a dedicated area known as "War". This means activism.

If we believe what Ayn Rand and others say about this subject (I find it self-evident and experientally evident), the core of things involves ideas. The people here are, on the whole, very strong, because Objectivism is a rigorous system of thought, and they have come to it of their own choosing.

The most direct form of activism that I chose was working with The Christian Alliance for Progress. That is because, although I am not a Christian, I am a Unitarian Universalist, and agree with what Jesus actually taught. Many people who have the time and the ability to try and get down to the real things about the teachings of Jesus find out that they are in-line with most rational philosophical systems, humanism, and many other pieces of work. There are basics and primaries of living that are consonant to allowing civilization and individual freedom to continue and they have been seen by many men.  I do not think of Jesus very often; to me he was an extraoridnary thinker, and possessed many unique skills. In any case, I believe that there are many outlets that are available to look at for all of us to work with that are in-line with who we are and how we happen to live. It works best when aligning this way.

Here, we have the people who have the ability to make a difference in the world of ideas when they devote some of their writing time to it. That purpose is more urgent, and to write about it is more important than treating all religion as one thing, and attacking it en masse, or wasting cycles qualifying and quantizing it. It is not hard to know a person or a movement- simply look at their actions- the actions show the values.

My opinion is that there is a bridge that can be built between atheists and non-atheists, for one. There is nothing but common interest in these matters. Remember the piece about Attila and The Witch Doctor? Picture what happens when the two of them form a strategic partnership, and you have met your enemy.  

In dealing with Fundamentalists, we see that they are currently capable (and the reasons do not matter) of being more effective and organized than Freethinkers.

We spend too much time infighting. We are undisciplined as we live in our freedom, sometimes.

Those of us who have had the life-changing experience that occured after we read Atlas Shrugged, and are writers can contribute something to the world of ideas. Ideas influence. This is why I have written things showing frustration at the ARI's op-ed project, where they give models, and urge people to write editorials. The focus is incorrect. But that is another thing.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 8/16, 7:59am)


Post 63

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 8:08amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andy: Why is that surprising, Rich? 

I'm not suprised. Why have people been using that line so much, lately? It's not suprising! It's BusinessAsUsual<tm>
 
You are correct about unwarranted attacks on theists. It is pigeonholing, elitist bullshit. Worse, it is pointless, ineffective bullshit.  That, I could tolerate, but in a time when unity is needed, no.

As far as public education, look at the facts as they stand now. What are we dealing with now? That is where the fires are, and proposing eliminating public education is not realistic at this time. It ain't going to happen anytime soon, no matter how much gets thrown on it. These times require pragmatism- working to the ideals is a constant.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 8/16, 8:17am)


Post 64

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 8:16amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed,
But what if this ID thing is not taken in isolation, but integrated with appeal to our current presidential dynamics? What about Rich's idea of an ingeniusly-contrived slippery slope?
I hope you don't mind me jumping in.  I share sentiments of Robert and Rick as to what the real problem is.

First, I should say that I don't think any young mind would be ruined by learning that ID, like Darwinism, is an unproven hypothesis to explain the fossil record of progressive life forms from about 3+ billions years ago to the present.  True, many theists find ID congenial to their creation stories.  They also like the Big Bang for the same reason.  But no one here is arguing that schools shouldn't teach the Big Bang because of what theists think.

So, if Rich is right about the slippery slope, it doesn't alarm me.  We have already slid down that slippery slope in the public schools with the poison of Marxism and all its offshoots like multiculturism and environmentalism.  If anything I welcome the theists sliding right down into that mix.  The more contradictions the public schools must teach, the sooner the whole system will crack and collapse.

I'm a pessimist when it comes to the reform of the state.  You can never fix it.  Only failure sweeps away its intrusions into our lives.  So let the public school system become burdened with the absurdities that were always inherent in it.  It is already corrupt, like all socialist projects, in that it exists not for its ostensible public puprose but instead to provide comfortable jobs for its workers at taxpayer expense.  But I don't see how we can push this monstrosity over the edge if we distract ourselves with hysteria about fundamentalists who may be lying in the weeds.

Andy


Post 65

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 8:25amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rich,
You are correct about unwarranted attacks on theists. It is pigeonholing, elitist bullshit. That, I could tolerate, but in a time when unity is needed, no.
Fair enough.  However, my experience living in a conservative religious community is that most theists want, like I do, the government out of their lives, and if they can't get that, to have an equal voice in what their taxes pay for.

Personally that's the only kind of common ground I find useful with others:  Political.  How a political ally gets to the same position as I have regarding government isn't important to me.

Andy


Post 66

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 10:08amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The more contradictions the public schools must teach, the sooner the whole system will crack and collapse….But I don't see how we can push this monstrosity over the edge if we distract ourselves with hysteria about fundamentalists who may be lying in the weeds.

Very well put Andy.

 


Post 67

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
You think they are lying in the weeds?

Okey-dokey.


Post 68

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 12:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rich,
You think they are lying in the weeds?

Okey-dokey.
That's right, as opposed to the barbarians who are already through the gates of the public school system.  By that I mean the multiculturalists, the feminists, the environmentalists, the entire rainbow of Marxism.   They are already there ruining the minds of kids coerced into attending public schools.

So why worry about Christians and Jews wanting to influence public education, whose political and ethical values are broadly aligned with that of Objectivists (even if they arrive at these values from different beliefs)?  Worry about the mind-rotting collectivists who despise the political liberty and moral decency that you and I hold dear.

Remember who Miss Rand repeatedly identified as the arch-enemies of a freedom-loving capitalist society.  They weren't the people attending church every Sunday.  They were the Marxists and their fellow travelers who are as strong as ever among us, at least on the cultural front, despite the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Andy


Post 69

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks, Robert.  Glad to help you identify the true enemy out there.

Andy


Post 70

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 2:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Please don't feed the trolls.

Post 71

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 3:37pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam,

Define troll.


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 72

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 3:44pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andy,

Remember who Miss Rand repeatedly identified as the arch-enemies of a freedom-loving capitalist society.  They weren't the people attending church every Sunday. 

Precisely.   Unitarians did not send her into paroxysms of fury like they do Adam.  Her loins were girded for battle against altruists, not deists. 


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 73

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 3:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam,
     Please don't feed the troll.


Post 74

Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 1:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
What's the difference between a troll and a curmudgeon? The taste?

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3


User ID Password or create a free account.