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Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 10:17pmSanction this postReply
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Dalil Boubakeur, the head of the French Council for the Muslim Religion, said people in the suburbs "must be given the conditions to live with dignity as human beings", not in "disgraceful squats".
I bet this wouldn't have happened if the leaches in these "disgraceful squats" were not given handouts by tax (read slave) money in the first place. (Assuming that that is how the people there get their resources to live). Dalil Boubakeur is just asking for more trouble.

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Post 1

Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 11:14pmSanction this postReply
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Sure.

But let's not forget the bigger picture in Western Europe. 10% unemployment in Germany & France, rampant welfarism, philosophical bankruptcy, kowtowing to the UN & the EU, anti-Americanism, French farmers slaughtering sheep in the streets & setting les deux chevaux on fire, the wreckage of the consensus, the high cost of lederhosen & free-range escargot, etc, etc.

It's a spectacular denouement & an indecent but entirely predictable degringolade.

The camel-jockey riots are just another inflamed pimple on the infected boil of the suppurating abscess of 21st century Fortress Europa.

Man they've got some trouble on that continent.

Wait 'til the bird flu hits 'em...

Ross



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Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 11:24pmSanction this postReply
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"Muslim rioting in Paris enters second week" [Andrew B]

Andrew, do you have some numbers to justify this headline?

How many of the rioters are unemployed black Africans who are non-muslims? Are they all muslims? What is your evidence?

I certainly wouldn't put it past the press to whitewash this, but you need more of a source than one guy posting to an islam-watch blog implying it's all or even a majority muslims to suggest (if you are) a conspiracy-like claim that everyone is deliberately "burying any mention of Muslims" as fact.

Phil
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 11/03, 11:47pm)


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Post 3

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 12:34amSanction this postReply
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Here you go Phil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Paris_suburb_riots

From the section subtitled "Background":

Immigration of Arabs and Berbers from North Africa has noticeably changed the Demographics of France since the 1960s, especially in Marseilles and Paris, with an estimated 1 million immigrating in the 1960s following the French rule in Algeria, and by 1994 about 5 million people of Muslim extraction were estimated to live in France (French law prohibits the collection of religion-related demographic data in census; according to a 2000 study, there were an estimated 4.1 million people of "Muslim extraction" in France). The Seine-Saint-Denis département has the largest Arab concentration in France (around 30%), with high unemployment rates (30% in La Courneuve), and is one of the départements with the highest incidence of violent crime. Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy in an October 2005 interview with Le Monde said that violent crime is a matter of daily life in suburbs all over France, quoting that, from January to October 2005, 9000 police cars had been stoned, and each night, 20 to 40 cars were torched. [26]. For 2004, officials from the Gendarmerie Nationale report 2,432 vehicles torched and 12,362 incidents of urban violence [27]. In October 2001, a synagogue in Clichy-sous-Bois was attacked with a Molotov cocktail and the same synagogue was attacked again in August 2002 [28]
Many residents of Clichy-sous-Bois and nearby areas are first or second generation Muslims from former French colonies; half of the suburb's population of 28,000 are aged under twenty-five. [29]. According to The Guardian, "the unrest has highlighted tensions between wealthy big cities and their grim ghettoised banlieues, home to immigrants from the Maghreb and West Africa who have never been fully integrated into French society and have become an underclass for whom hopelessness and discrimination are normal."
The BBC wrote that the riots illustrate "discontent among many French youths of North African origin". It contends that North African Muslims face discrimination in many areas of life in Paris highlighting that "the pressure group SOS Racisme regularly highlights cases of employers discarding applicants with foreign names." [30] The Australian reports that assimilation has failed, evidenced by the large numbers of immigrants living in poor, run-down suburbs of Paris.

Laws providing for restrictions on display of religious symbols in schools, including the Muslim hijab, have also been the source of debate and political tension in France. These laws, intended to enforce secularity in schools, are especially resented by some Muslims.
French colonial history, mostly in Algeria, is seen by a growing number of minority activists ("Manifeste des indigènes de la République") as the main source of discrimination against ethnic minorities whose family background lies in North of Subsaharan Africa and in the Caribbean and Indian Ocean former colonies.

There are several million French citizens with a Muslim or Caribbean background but not a single metropolitan MP with the same background in the Assemblée nationale (there are however MPs representing Martinique, French Polynesia, Réunion etc.). The two first metropolitan senators with a Muslim Algerian or Moroccan background, Alima Boumedienne-Thiery (Greens) and Bariza Khiari (Parti Socialiste), entered the Senate only in september 2004. There are currently ministers of North African origin in the government.
Azouz Begag, "ministre délégué à la promotion de l'égalité des chances" ("delegate minister for the promotion of equality of opportunities", the ministry devoted to rooting out discrimination, is of Algerian origins. He made several declarations about the recent unrest, opposing himself to Interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy.
The Union nationale des syndicats autonomes (UNSA) des policiers, a police work union, has suggested that recent budget cuts in the "proximity police" ("police de proximité", police units in charge for preventing crime and tensions in the "cités") should be reversed.
Warnings have come from a variety of publications that this long-simmering situation would boil over into the riots being witnessed today.[31]
Some aspects of French society are questioning whether France can integrate its Muslim community, which remains hopelessly segregated.[32]
"The republican model of integration of ethnic minorities is in trouble," said Maurice Szafran, the publisher of Marianne magazine. "The young people of the suburbs are not in agreement with any aspect of this model."[33]

Edit: BTW, when this is as easy as typing "Paris riots" into Wiki's search box, I don't really feel obligated to belabor it in the news post with half a dozen links. That's pretty much a basic internet skill these days.

(Edited by Andrew Bissell on 11/04, 12:35am)


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Friday, November 4, 2005 - 12:38amSanction this postReply
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Now it's getting so bad even Reuters can't ignore the truth anymore:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051104/ts_nm/france_riots_dc


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Friday, November 4, 2005 - 2:29amSanction this postReply
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But, Andrew, we need to make a case for Islam...we need tolerance and understanding of their religion...

Bah.

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Post 6

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 2:37amSanction this postReply
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Bah, Bah, Bah. Blah, Blah, Blah. Islam Shlislam. There, I said it. I'm tired of people bending over backwards trying to defend Islam. When are Americans going to stand up and call a spade a spade? Christians know that they can't go around smiting and smoting. Jews don't go knocking down the walls of Jericho anymore. So why do Muslims get to spout threats without repercussion? Where is the moral outrage towards the shah of Iran?

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Friday, November 4, 2005 - 5:50amSanction this postReply
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Did you mean moral outrage towards the ayatollahs? I used to feel plenty, but it's not worth it anymore. It's not like I can do something useful, like feed a cleric to the pigs every time one of them mouths off.

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Friday, November 4, 2005 - 7:24amSanction this postReply
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The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times and New York Times make the Muslim connection for today's editions within the first three paragraphs. Just FYI.

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Friday, November 4, 2005 - 7:27amSanction this postReply
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...So why do Muslims get to spout threats without repercussion? Where is the moral outrage towards the shah of Iran?

I regret that I have but one *bonk* to give to that post.


SmS


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Post 10

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
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> this is as easy as typing "Paris riots" into Wiki's search box....
[Andrew B ]

Wikipedia is not an authoritative source. Anyone can write or change any article [look at big red flag on the very article you quoted.]

> ...that's pretty much a basic internet skill these days.

Lose the sarcasm.

> The Seine-Saint-Denis département has the largest Arab concentration in France (around 30%)

Andrew, note how low a number 30% is.

What still has not been shown is that it is only or mostly the **Muslims** among the unemployed, on welfare, Africans and North Afircans in these areas. And, if you stop and think about it logically, why might the other people in a very high unemployment "slum" not decide to participate as well.

It's liike graffiti and vandalism and looting in bad neighborhoods the U.S., it's not restricted to one race (see the footage of the New Orleans looters...even in much higher than 30% black areas) or one religion.

> The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times and New York Times make the Muslim connection

Actually, I just read all three: They don't say it is majority muslims on the streets. (Which in this case, is an example for once of -good- and non-sensationalist journalism by the mainstream press.) They refer to *how many* live in those neighborhoods.

Andrew, Ross, Joe, Matthew, Christy:

DO NOT SHOOT FROM THE HIP because you -want- to believe it is only or mainly the muslims.

It well may turn out to be, but that hasn't been published/demonstrated anywhere yet as of Friday this week. Simple logical points: 1. photographs of a black or white kid who may look African on a lark with a Molotov cocktail .. or the neighborhood he is rioting in ... don't tell you what his religion is.

Nor does: 2. "anecdotal evidence" of muslim leaders trying to calm the neighborhoods or those in the riots who are muslim.

Phil

PS, the reason this is an important issue is that there is a strong tendency for too many Objectivists to get their news and "facts" and conspiracies only from right-wing sources.

It's the flip side of the mistake I've posted on before of NOT reading NRO and other right-wing sources for a more positive perspective on the Iraq war. You have to read both and compare.

(Otherwise you sound poorly read or like a nut when you go out and try to adduce facts to support your ideas and spread your philosophy. Which doesn't help Objectivism and doesn't help your own advancement or influence.)


(Edited by Philip Coates
on 11/04, 2:39pm)


Post 11

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 2:55pmSanction this postReply
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Hello, Philip.

For your response to "The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times and New York Times make the Muslim connection" ...

I would have been clearer if I had said, "The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times and New York Times referred to Muslims for today's editions within the first three paragraphs."

Re: "DO NOT SHOOT FROM THE HIP because you -want- to believe it is only or mainly the muslims."

My comment did not reflect my views on the matter. I wanted to contribute which media were referring to Muslims early in the story. Thanks.


Post 12

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 3:02pmSanction this postReply
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I lean more towards Phil's viewpoint at the moment.  I have yet to see any compelling evidence that Islam per se is the cause of this rioting.  At the very least, it certainly doesn't appear to be a jihadist activity, and there is no evidence to suggest that it's part of any coordinated international Islamist effort. 

If anything, the riots show what a failure socialism is.  Presumably these kids have the "free" health care and "free" college education of the wonderful welfare state, yet they still don't seem too happy - they appear to only want more and more handouts.  What's even more sickening is the socialist Left's appeasement of these criminals by claiming that they need to "do more" for them.   Tibor's recent article about the futility of never-ending relief is particularly relevant here. 


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Post 13

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
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Pete: "I lean more towards Phil's viewpoint at the moment.Ê I have yet to see any compelling evidence that Islam per se is the cause of this rioting.Ê At the very least, it certainly doesn't appear to be a jihadist activity, and there is no evidence to suggest that it's part of any coordinated internationalÊIslamist effort.Ê
If anything,ÊtheÊriotsÊshow what a failure socialism is.ÊÊPresumably these kids have the "free" health care and "free" college educationÊof the wonderful welfare state, yet they still don't seem too happy - they appear to only want more and more handouts.Ê What's even more sickening is the socialist Left's appeasement of these criminalsÊby claiming that they need to "do more" for them.Ê"

Fair enough, Pete. But honestly, I don't care what the name is. Islam, Socialism, environmentalism...When these groups act out, excuses are always made. It's either "well, we don't know if was really them." When it is proven to be "them," it's "oh, well, you can't blame it on the philosophy, it's just a few individuals." When it is the philosophy, then it's appealed to multicultural differences and intolerance. And those who should speak out are intimidated into silence. But when an American makes a mistake, of course the entire west if vilified, so I don't want to hear about intolerance.C'mon! They all have the same underlying premise, and share the same defenders. And they are philosophies that advocate initiating force.

I've said all I am going to say, because the argument's just going to get me angry.
(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 11/04, 3:48pm)


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Post 14

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 3:32pmSanction this postReply
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> Re: "DO NOT SHOOT FROM THE HIP because you -want- to believe it is only or mainly the muslims." My comment did not reflect my views on the matter.

Christy, I understand: sorry for joining everyone together as doing the same thing.

Post 15

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Another aspect:

It is possible for a biased liberal journalist to flip-flop. He could decide not to state the race or ethnicity of someone who does something bad for PC reasons.. He could also decide later on, wrt the very same story...to emphasize it, so that he can stoke the story of how oppressed they are, how they are not treated fairly etc. If stories multiply on the poor treatment of the immigrants, including muslims in Europe, that would provide an incentive to reverse the PC premise of not labelling.

But again, to determine what the -facts- are, you need solid quantitative facts being reported, not merely believing the adjectives reported by either the msm (mainstream media) or the conservative media.

YJCTAOTB
(You Just Can't Trust Any Of The Bastards)

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Post 16

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Joe,-
Bah, Bah, Bah. Blah, Blah, Blah. Islam Shlislam. There, I said it. I'm tired of people bending over backwards trying to defend Islam
That's what I always say too, except that my exact words are "I'm so tired of collectivists tarring everybody with the same brush without qualification, especially those sworn to fight collectivism."

This extract from CrusadeWatch.com....

"...Allah damn those infidels at the corner drug store! They have short-changed me once again. I put a jihad on them. They were out of diet coke today and when I asked about the possibility of stocking goat's milk they said it was not a product they stocked. So I only bought a Milkyway bar. And put a jihad on them. The drug store counter-hand happens to be Christian therefore all Christians everywhere are out to destroy civilisation therefore, Allah willing, nuclear death shall soon rain down on them and all their children....." 
I've said all I am going to say, because
Bet you do! Especially if I use the word 'collectivist' again. Collectivist collectivist collectivist.

- Rick high-fives Philip Coates on the way out -


Post 17

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 5:37pmSanction this postReply
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Summer:
     Cute. Not to mention...ditto (as Michael would say, "He's *bonked*")

     Can one say that the so-called 'virtue' of  Toleration, if never 'defined' in terms of LIMITS, most often results almost virtually inevitably in these (if not worse in the next few wks) situations?

     Drudge, today (Nov-4-05) had his website's heading showing a vehicle on fire at night with the bold-large-letters caption "BURNING?" I'm surprised he didn't put it, after these weeks, "IS PARIS BURNING?"
 
     Ross implied a good point: Europe, like the US, needs only one more real 'problem' (epidemic/border-attack/new-riot/etc) to make the fur fly globally. Meanwhile, all of East Asia is watching...for the most part, quietly.

LLAP
J:D


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Post 18

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 7:04pmSanction this postReply
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One thing is certain. The poison of victimology is at work in the streets and universities of the West.

"My suffering is the result of other people's action (or inaction)."

We have plenty of it here in America and I'm not the least bit surprised to see it in France.

Here is a complaint number for poor people in Western countries who should be happy to finally have the opportunity to lift themselves out of poverty through hard work.

                1-800-CRY-BABY



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Post 19

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
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Rick, if you're trying to goad me, it's not going to work. But you turn me on when you get cocky, so go for it...;)

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