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Post 120

Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:25pmSanction this postReply
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Hong,

if you'll like to dialalogue on a "main issue" it's helpful to clearly define one.

Teresa referred to "these programs"...

you also used a quote of mine and then your comment wasn't quite in line with it.

To be clear, I'm about education, motivation, inspiration, elevation, (I could go on...*s*)

Since neither you nor Teresa can be clear and/or specific, regarding the type of programs you're referring to, I'll offer an example:

Shortly after returning home from graduate study, I worked for a large organization which had been recently started up, in a very large hotel bought for the purpose of housing formerly homeless clients, and, I was told, helping them to become self-sufficient.
I had just returned from school and was called and asked to do this gig, temporarily which could lead to permanently if I desired.  It was something to do while also spending the summer interviewing for a teaching gig.  And I was being offered positions left and right and truly realizing the power (empowerment) of education/credentials.

I was assistant to the director of employment, who didn't do much of anything, while I was fulfilling the roles of job preparer/job developer/job counselor.  The organization's executive director was well-connected and was securing hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of dollars from multinational corporations and other large established businesses.

After a couple of months of sending clients out on minimum wage paying jobs, and having acquired knowledge, through my relationships with clients, of their varied interests and potential, one day at a meeting, I suggested that we begin to go beyond helping clients to low-wage employment to assisting them in becoming independent through education, skills training, apprenticeships, college.  (We had clients who had skills and/or expressed interestets in everything from plumbing to cooking to computers, etc.)
The executive director's response was some BS regarding the large number of clients who lacked the capabilities and mental capacity...blah, blah, blah.

There were several goings on there in the months I stayed that weren't cool and/or in line with the organization's stated mission to help folk become self-sufficient.  They didn't give a damn about the clients, but they were raking in some serious dough.

At any rate, that was Poverty Pimpin 101 for me.

There are "programs" that profit as they seek to remedy --via education or jobs training, employment, affording a sense of accomplishment, hope and/or a positive outlook, etc.-- and there are programs that uh...get money

and the Program Powers' perspective is that the longer and stronger the "destructive cycles", the better.

I'm still not clear on what univiversity programs Teresa and Bill were referring to.

Higher Education is big business, big money, big profits, and while it can turn out to be a big disappointment to students who are ill-advised, or who don't understand that it's not a ticket per se, rather a higher playing card for the game (higher than a high school diploma or lower or no education), it also can afford opportunity and help one to create options and opportunities to begin new cycles.

(Edited by Get to living! Donna Reed on 3/23, 10:34pm)




Post 121

Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 11:09pmSanction this postReply
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I'm still not clear on what univiversity programs Teresa and Bill were referring to.
Higher Education is big business, big money, big profits,
I thought public universities required non-profit status.  All of the public universities around here are not-for-profit organizations. Isn't that a criteria to qualify for the state and federal money that helps to maintain them?
I know tuition at these institutions is a fraction of what it is at private schools (community college v. Michigan State University, for example), and Pel grants are the bread and butter of these schools.

I thought this was interesting, but I have a question about it:

 I was assistant to the director of employment, who didn't do much of anything, while I was fulfilling the roles of job preparer/job developer/job counselor.  The organization's executive director was well-connected and was securing hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of dollars from multinational corporations and other large established businesses.
So, this place was a private homeless shelter, or halfway house outfit? Was it contracted by the government, do you know?  And money was solicited from these private corporations for the purpose of what?  Corporations donating that much cash are looking for tax deductions, which require accreditation from the government as a viable charity. If it wasn't a donation to a charity, was it some kind of money laundering scheme?  I don't understand.  It looks like you're trying to draw a negative parallel from private institutions, but I can't really tell.





Post 122

Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 11:13pmSanction this postReply
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Donna wrote,
I'm still not clear on what university programs Teresa and Bill were referring to.
Donna, you had previously stated, "I encounter very many single women, in my courses at a public university within which I teach, 'poor' women with limited education and little to no marketable skills, who overcome seemingly insurmountable obstacles, who set and achieve goals that they never thought they would or could and who go on to make wonderful lives for themselves and their children."

And Teresa replied, "No offense is meant by this inquiry, but how much motivation is there to continue these programs by grant money supplied to them? Does this motivation encourage those in charge to in turn encourage the destructive cycles these programs appear to remedy, or seek to end them outright?"

My understanding was that by "these programs," Teresa was referring to the kind of courses that you teach at a public university. So, when I asked her, "Are you saying that courses designed to help poor women improve their lives and expand their employment opportunities are a bad thing, because they imply a vested interest in keeping people poor just so these courses can continue to be funded?," she replied, "Yes, Bill, that's what I was wondering."

So, there's your answer.

- Bill



Post 123

Friday, March 24, 2006 - 12:02amSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

You say:
I thought public universities required non-profit status.  All of the public universities around here are not-for-profit organizations. Isn't that a criteria to qualify for the state and federal money that helps to maintain them?
I know tuition at these institutions is a fraction of what it is at private schools (community college v. Michigan State University, for example), and Pel grants are the bread and butter of these schools.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

There all kinds of not-for-profit organizations within which big money's movin.

Some not-for-profits are funded entirely with government grants.  For others, government grants are the lesser funds of many, which is the case where I worked.

As far as universities, my comment wasn't limited to public universities.  I said "Higher Education"

Just the same, I don't know that Pell grants are the bread and butter of public universities.
(Pell grants, although the many add up, cut checks to students as supplement for college expenses.)
I would think the the 'bigger' money comes from tuition-paying financial aid.

As well, are you discounting the very many students whose parents pay out-of-pocket and students who work tirelessly to pay their own tuition and expenses, and then there are scholarships/partical scholarships and the ole' student loans.

Moreover, don't sleep on the very handsome donations that universities receive from alumni.  For example, Queens College recently received $10,000,000 from an alumus with which they're renovating another very nice multimillion dollar building which was also funded by a single private multimillion dollar donation a few years ago.

Yes, public universities' tuition is lower than state universities and state universities are lower than private.
Nevertheless, besides renown scholars, private university faculty tend to be earn lower salaries than public, not unlike private school faculty salaries tend to be significantly lower than public school faculty.

You say:
So, this place was a private homeless shelter, or halfway house outfit? Was it contracted by the government, do you know?  And money was solicited from these private corporations for the purpose of what?  Corporations donating that much cash are looking for tax deductions, which require accreditation from the government as a viable charity. If it wasn't a donation to a charity, was it some kind of money laundering scheme?  I don't understand.  It looks like you're trying to draw a negative parallel from private institutions, but I can't really tell.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
 
Neither (a homeless shelter or halfway house) nor was it constructed by the government for that purpose.
It was a hotel, very large and fairly elegant, purchased by the organization and called an FHHO (Formerly Homeless Housing Organization) or something similar to that.

As far as trying to draw a negative parallell from private institutions - probably not because I don't know what you're talking about.

Remember your earlier question - Does this motivation encourage those in charge to in turn encourage the destructive cycles these programs appear to remedy, or seek to end them outright?"

 
As written, it's difficult for me to discern if by "those in charge" you mean the powers that be and the systems (my post to Kurt) or administrators of community programs.  As well, you don't outline any particular programs.

At any rate, I think you're alluding to what we who "seek to remedy" refer to as Poverty Pimping
Would a pimp want the ho's, who are brining in the dough, to modify their behavior, get all cleaned up, find a better way and/or change their lives.

Folks do better when they know how and believe in themselves that they can.

(Edited by Get to living! Donna Reed on 3/24, 11:36am)




Post 124

Friday, March 24, 2006 - 12:16amSanction this postReply
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Bill

You Say:
Teresa was referring to the kind of courses that you teach at a public university. So, when I asked her, "Are you saying that courses designed to help poor women improve their lives and expand their employment opportunities are a bad thing, because they imply a vested interest in keeping people poor just so these courses can continue to be funded?," she replied, "Yes, Bill, that's what I was wondering."
So, there's your answer.

______________________________________________________________________________________________
 
Bill, I declare...

I don't know of any courses designed for poor women --public, state, private or otherwise-- let alone teach any.





 





Post 125

Friday, March 24, 2006 - 7:05amSanction this postReply
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Donna, I appreciate your fair reply and I understand where you are coming from.  It is true that we all have to live within the current system and I don't feel you are someone trying to perpetuate and/or exploit it, just trying to do the best you can within what you have and I can appreciate that. 



Post 126

Friday, March 24, 2006 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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To be clear, I'm about education, motivation, inspiration, elevation, (I could go on...*s*)

Great.

I am more concerned though, about *why* and *how* some people, such as those you've helped,
who are born and raised in US become homeless or poor.

PS. Thanks for the detailed description of one of the programs you were involved in. As I said, I am more concerned about the root problems that lead to the situations that those of your former clients found themselves in. To try to solve, or at least identify those fundamental problems, is what I like to see.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 3/24, 10:50am)




Post 127

Friday, March 24, 2006 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
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Donna, you wrote,
Bill, I declare...

I don't know of any courses designed for poor women --public, state, private or otherwise-- let alone teach any.
I see. So when you said, "I encounter very many single women, in my courses at a public university within which I teach, 'poor' women with limited education and little to no marketable skills...," - these courses were not designed for poor women - "designed" being the operative word here. Okay. Do you suppose that, given our obvious misunderstanding, you could have clarified this yourself, rather than continue to query us on it, as if you had no idea what we were talking about?

- Bill



Post 128

Friday, March 24, 2006 - 6:17pmSanction this postReply
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Great.

I am more concerned though, about *why* and *how* some people, such as those you've helped,
who are born and raised in US become homeless or poor.

PS. Thanks for the detailed description of one of the programs you were involved in. As I said, I am more concerned about the root problems that lead to the situations that those of your former clients found themselves in. To try to solve, or at least identify those fundamental problems, is what I like to see.
______________________________________________________________________________________________

Hong,

Have you considered doing some historical research (and present day study) - political, economic, sociocultural  

and/or becoming involved in an organization that would allow you to "see" and learn

as well as become involved in solution?



BTW, I used "poor" in quotes here somewhat sarcastically.  It isn't a term I normally use.




Post 129

Friday, March 24, 2006 - 10:27pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Donna,
Have you considered doing some historical research (and present day study) - political, economic, sociocultural and/or becoming involved in an organization that would allow you to "see" and learn as well as become involved in solution?

Though I do have my own opinions on those problems, I have to say that I am just an amateur. I'd like to know what professionals such as yourself consider is the root or solution and see if I agree with it before deciding on anything.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 3/24, 10:40pm)




Post 130

Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 2:55amSanction this postReply
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Hi Donna,
Have you considered doing some historical research (and present day study) - political, economic, sociocultural and/or becoming involved in an organization that would allow you to "see" and learn as well as become involved in solution?

Though I do have my own opinions on those problems, I have to say that I am just an amateur. I'd like to know what professionals such as yourself consider is the root or solution and see if I agree with it before deciding on anything.

__________________________________________________________________________________________


*laff* 
 

Hong,  that is funny




Post 131

Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:04amSanction this postReply
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Donna,

Hong is very likely the brightest and most objective human being you will ever have the opportunity to dialog with. I for one would like to see you take advantage of the opportunity.

Hong has asked you, professional to professional, to give an analysis of the root problems of your profession, and how your proposed solutions address the fundamental root causes. I am interested in your well considered response.

Mike E.



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Post 132

Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 6:27pmSanction this postReply
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Donna,

Hong is very likely the brightest and most objective human being you will ever have the opportunity to dialog with. I for one would like to see you take advantage of the opportunity.

Hong has asked you, professional to professional, to give an analysis of the root problems of your profession, and how your proposed solutions address the fundamental root causes. I am interested in your well considered response.
______________________________________________________________________________________


It's been said, "It takes one to know one", which begs the question - How in the hell would you know...
whose bright and objective?  Your post doesn't present you as the sharpest knife in the drawer ya damn self.

*s*

Just a little jokey joke in response to YOURS.

Looky here...uh, Mike is it?

Ya girl, said she's "just an amateur" and, at this point, I'm inclined to agree.  She may be bright and objective.
Thing is, I can't tell.  Neither can I tell from your post that you're in a position to call it.

Moreover, for the love of Denzel, I can't figure out what you've been drinking, smoking or how lethal the quantity to attempt to sell me this - "very likely the brightest and most objective human being..." crap.

Miss me with that mess, Big Daddy.  You don't know me from a can of paint, let alone who I have the opportunity to dialogue with.


Now about your requests -

"Analysis of the Root Problems of My Profession and How My Proposed Solutions Address the Fundamental Root Causes"
 
AND

"Why and How Some People Who Are Born in the US Become Homeless or Poor:  Roots and Solutions"
 
(Yall are cute...remind me of my college students who try to use my conference hours to get some private tutoring or find out what's on the test.)

Perhaps a course or a seminar series (go get some more of your friends).  I must warn you though, there'd be an extensive reading list.  And it wouldn't be a lecture series where students sit back and take notes.
The discussions would be live!...however would require students do some of their own research and actually bring something TO the dialogue...*s*


All right, what kind of money are we talking?

Make me an offer $$$$$$...

or shut the fuck up.

(Edited by Get to living! Donna Reed on 3/25, 6:46pm)




Post 133

Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 6:59pmSanction this postReply
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Donna,

""Analysis of the Root Problems of My Profession and How My Proposed Solutions Address the Fundamental Root Causes"

AND

"Why and How Some People Who Are Born in the US Become Homeless or Poor: Roots and Solutions"
""

Sounds like these, [books? papers? presentations?] don't exist yet. So, you're suggesting I get together a bunch of friends, raise and bunch of money, GIVE it to you, then you'll THINK about maybe giving us the opportunity to sit in a damn hall somewhere and listen to your damned inflated ego self give us a talk?

Not in this lifetime BEE-itch.

Yes it is 'Mike', how did you EVER figure that out?

(I'll take the can of paint for it's practical use.)



Post 134

Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 7:07pmSanction this postReply
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Donna, I appreciate your fair reply and I understand where you are coming from.  It is true that we all have to live within the current system and I don't feel you are someone trying to perpetuate and/or exploit it, just trying to do the best you can within what you have and I can appreciate that. 

______________________________________________________________________________________________

You got it, Kurt

just trying to do what I can...

I understand and respect your position too.




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