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Post 40

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 6:43amSanction this postReply
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Scott,

You seem to also be a moral relativist. How do you reconcile that? Rand never morally equated the US with the Soviet Union. I don't want you or Mike to keep dancing around that. You are morally equating the US with the Soviet Union and I want to hear you either admit that, or explain why I am wrong?

Post 41

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 8:46amSanction this postReply
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Andy, you have the virtue of being consistently wrong.
1) Rand did NOT say TR was the lesser of any evils, she said that he was an evil period, an imperialist, militarist collectivist-statist. That
clear enough for you ?
2) I never said that I hated the US, you are a typical statist in equating the evil policies of the US State with the country as a whole.
3) WHY would you thank your stars for a government that has murdered well over 10 million people since WW2 propping up statist regimes all over the world ?????????!!!!!!!!
4) Read The Genesis of The World War (1)
by Harry Elmer Barnes. THERE WERE EVENTS OF OVER 14 YEARS WHICH LED UP TO THE GERMANS VOTING FOR HITLER.
5)Ergo for the Bolshevik coup in Russia, it was the US intervention which prevented a desirable stalemate and led to the unbalanced
"victory" which brought Lenin to power.
You think things like this happen in a vacuum ?
6)Israel has been the aggreessor from day one. They started expelling Palestinians from
Palestine in late 1947, the pathetic Arab armies intervened in May 1948 to stop the
Zionist military, which outnumbered the combined Arab armies by a 3 to 1 margin,
from expelling all the rest. Even so almost one million Palestinians were forced out of their own country. Israel in 1956 INVADED Egypt with the UK & France in the infamous Suez Conspiracy.
7) In 1967 Israel INVADED Jordan, Egypt,
and Syria to illegally seize their lands, the Golan Heights, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, the Sinai.
8) In 1978 Israel INVADED Lebanon.
9) In 1982 Israel INVADED Lebanon.
10) ONLY in 1973 did Egypt and Syria start
a war STRICTLY TO RECAPTURE LAND TAKEN BY ISRAEL IN 1967.
Read the Israeli historian Avi Shlaim's book The Iron Wall: Israel and The Arab World for
a history going from 1947-1999.
Also read Shlaim's The Politics of Partition for the history of the expulsion of the Palestinians
and double dealing between Israel and Jordan's monarchy from 1921-1951.
11) The Arabs hate Israel because Israel has always hated the Arabs from the start of the racist Zionist project in the 1880s.The Arabs hate us for bankrolling Israel and their own rightwing dictators.
12) Israel started Hamas as a means to defeat the secular PLO back in the late 70s.
13) Read Noam Chomsky's The Fateful Triangle: The US, Israel and the Palestinians,
read The Zionist Connection by Alfred Lilienthal, hell, even read books by a Palestinian named Edward Said.
You are a holocaust denier of the worst sort,
Israel has done many, many, many wrong things, read the works of Israel Shahak such as Jewish History, Jewish Religion and Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel. He came to Israel in
1945 from the Bergen-Belsen camp. He was the head of the Israeli Human Rights League.
14) You are a very ignorant neoconservative, the US Govt is the major evil in the world today, read Rothbard's For A New Liberty, the foreign policy chapter, for starters.
Rand's work is ok but old hat. Can read Rothbard, Di Lorenzo, Bovard, Reisman and many others who have advanced beyond her earlier work.


Post 42

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 8:49amSanction this postReply
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John, why should we play your crappy little neocon con game on the moral relativism nonissue ? The US is far worse in foreign policy and the Soviets far worse in domestic policy. That straight enough for you ?

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Post 43

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 9:15amSanction this postReply
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Just to put things into perspective Mike. I don't agree with all the foreign policy descisions the US has made. But you say the US foreign policy was worse than the Soviet foreign policy? To entertain the 10 million figure you use, communism is responsible for 100 million deaths in the 20th century, 10 times that figure, and hundreds of millions more into a complete hell whole of slavery and complete and utter misery. And how many more millions of lives did the US save in it's foreign policy? Hundreds of millions? You don't think we can pass a moral judgement on that? 100 million dead and hundreds of millions more enslaved, that was the result of the foreign policy of the Soviet Union. And you say the US was worse?

The fact you cite Noam Chomsky, a known social-anarchist and collectivist of the worst sort, leads me to understand how you got your warped sense of morality. And for you to accuse others of collectivist ideals while citing Chomsky is laughable if not sad.

The fact you would imply Theodore Roosevelt was worse than Stalin? It's actually a little embarrasing to hear someone actually believe that. Stalin, the worst murderer in human history, is equated with Theodore Roosevelt?

You accuse me of playing neo-con games, but I'm only holding you responsible to your words. You think moral relativism is a non-issue, but that couldn't be further from the truth. To morally equate the west with the evils of communism, excuses the worse kind of collectivism. It implies the West is no better, and has no moral authority to pass moral judgement on an idealogy that has killed more people than any other kind of idealogy in human history.


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Post 44

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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I am completely appalled and disgusted by Mike hardesty's post #41. I standby my earlier observation that his is a maniacal nut case.


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Post 45

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 9:23amSanction this postReply
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I wish to put an excellent and phenomenol article my good friend Michael Dickey wrote about the evil of communism and evils of moral ambiguity. It such a good article it addresses the very moral relativism that is being discussed here. I hope Michael Dickey you are ok with this? It's so well written I saw no reason to try and reinvent the wheel. Michael hopefully with your blessing, I post your article:

______________________

Communism and moral ambiguity


Communism and moral ambiguity

Most people react with vile disdain when they see a Nazi flag, and rightly so. Nazism has killed 20 million people, an estimated 6 million Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and physically deformed people intentionally in prison camps. However, how many people share the same disdain for Communism? Even though it has killed almost ten times as many people as Nazism did, it still it is looked on by most people in a favorable light, taught by history professors with an unbiased account, considered good in theory (is Nazism good in theory?) and as of yet just incorrectly implemented.



Communism has killed 170 million people this century, according to Political Scientist, Nobel Peace Prize runner up and author of the most cited historical book, R.J Rummel. By 1950 alone that number was in the dozens of millions, many millions in China and may millions in the Soviet Union; so it was right to be very weary of it and any communist political officer of influence.

From R.J Rummels site -
For perspective on Mao's most bloody rule, all wars 1900-1987 cost in combat dead 34,021,000 -- including WWI and II, Vietnam, Korea, and the Mexican and Russian Revolutions. Mao alone murdered over twice as many as were killed in combat in all these wars. Think about that. One man. Only one man did that much killing. If anything should cause us to avoid anyone having such power at any cost, here it is.

Rational people in this nation were more than justified in attempting to route out communists from government positions. Cables and messages released after the fall of the Soviet Union, revealed that most of the people McCarthy accused of being communist spies actually were, including Alger Hiss. Communism is no laughing matter, as it's death toll attests. The tendency today is to A) completely downplay it's historical atrocities B) ridicule the individuals concern with it at the height of the Cold War (i.e. derogatory comments about "The Red Scare" "McArthyism" and the "Domino Theory" ) C) and laugh at how the Soviet Union fell without a single shot being fired. (never mind the millions of battle dead in China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Korea, South America, etc)

In that regard I highly recommend checking out R.J. Rummels site, Power Kills, http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/welcome.html which documents murders committed by governments, left and right. Governments have killed more than 4 times the number of people that have been killed in wars this century, and the overwhelming majority of those murders were committed by communist governments.



I am a great admirer of Ayn Rand, and when she was asked what her political position was, she stated "Anti-Communist" but then recanted, refusing to define herself with a negative. She did however testify as a friendly witness for the House Un-American Activities Committee, which though not affiliated with McCarthy directly, was an effort in the same theme.

But I cant re-iterate this part of the story as well as Kelley Ross from http://www.friesian.com/rand.htm

"Another of Rand's sins against the Left and still of current interest was her willingness to testify as a "friendly witness" in the 1947 hearings of the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HUAC) on Communist infiltration of Hollywood. Rand's only complaint was that they didn't let her testify enough. She was the only person at the hearings who had actually lived under Communism, indeed been a witness to the entire Russian Revolution and Civil War, and she wanted to explain how anti-capitalist messages were included in many mainstream Hollywood movies. It may not be remembered much now that Rand got her real start in America working in Hollywood, living for many years in the San Fernando Valley. This is still of current interest because, after many years of hard feelings, the Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences in 1999 finally gave an Oscar to Elia Kazan, director of such classics as On the Waterfront (1954) -- which itself was about a man fighting with his conscience over whether to expose his gangster (i.e. Communist) friends. Kazan, after leaving the Communist Party, was willing to "name names" to HUAC in 1952.

While Communism failed and fell in the real world, in the make-believe world of Hollywood Communist propaganda succeeded quite nicely, and many people still believe that the HUAC investigations were "witch hunts" for non-existent enemies or well-meaning idealists. Well meaning idealists there were, but they were not the targets of the Committee. Instead, they became the "useful idiot" liberals, in Lenin's words, who whitewashed all the real Communists and their activities. The useful idiots are still at it, though since the 60's many of them, as anti-anti-Communists, have been all but indistinguishable from their Communist friends in Vietnam, Cuba, and Nicaragua. As it turned out, the easiest way to find the Communists in Hollywood was just to subpoena all the suspects. Almost everyone who then refused to testify or took the Fifth Amendment, it happened, actually were Party members (acting on Party orders) or fellow travelers, as we know now from many sources, including the Soviet archives that also reveal the Soviet funding and direction of the Communist Party USA and its activities in Hollywood. These were not idealists but willing agents of tyranny, murder, and crimes against humanity. Rand would have no more patience now with leftists whining about "McCarthyism" than she did in 1947 with the lying and dissimulating agents of the living mass murderer Josef Stalin."

You can read Rand's HUAC testimony here -
http://www.noblesoul.com/orc/texts/huac.htm

Given the massive amount of murders committed by Communist nations, their typical political tendency to undermine intellectually non-communist nations (the first phase of their typical plan, the last of which is typically targeted executions of intellectuals in opposition to them) and the fact that most of these people actually were communist spies, it is incredibly disingenuous to deride McCarthy and HUAC in the manner that is so common today.

Perhaps in my assessment of communism is an instance where my thinking is much more black and white than is typically espoused today, with communism viewed with much more forgiveness and diminished moral condemnation. I can certainly understand what might drive individuals to communism, especially in the ratty shit-holes and murderously oppressive right wing nationalist nations that spawned communism in many cases, even if it was with a lot of Soviet help; however in every case those far left governments killed many more then even the worst of the far right governments. While I certainly understand and empathizes with the struggles an individual must face in a situation like that, I have absolutely no tolerance for those who simply want to make slaves out of every free man on earth.

In one sad case often cited as part of the Red Scare Physicists and head of the Manhattan Project Robert J Oppenheimer was accused of being a communist spy and some former members of his team testified against him, such as Edward Teller. Oppenheimer was a very sad victim in this and I am a great admirer of him and in fact Teller as well, but his accusation and subsequent loss of security clearance shocked the scientific community. Yet there was indeed a spy at the Manhattan Project in the form of Klaus Fuchs, who handed over the plans for an atomic bomb to Henry Gold, who then handed them to the Rosenberg's. Many people claim that the information provided by Fuchs was vital in the Soviet's achievement of a nuclear bomb (although some claim it was of little use)

I suspect from discussions of communism I have had that to many people black and what thinking equates with absolutist assessments of things, like my consideration of communism as evil or wrong, while others might search through all of it for some good. But it is fallacious to assert that in all things or people there is some good, because it simultaneously asserts that in all people there must be some bad, and consequently that no matter how hard one tries to be good they could never attain that, and no matter how evil someone or something is, like Stalin, Mao, Hitler, or communism, it has some good in it. I have no doubt that Stalin was probably nice to his dog, and that a few peasants were helped out by communism, but the overwhelming majority of horrific pain and suffering that communism caused could never even remotely be blemished by whatever miniscule good that came from it.

Many people strive to find value in divergent ideas and try to examine them from every possible angle, perspective, and scale, but to any value system based on the life of an individual, communism can have *no value* whatsoever. Communism is the absolute logical extension of anti-life, anti-human, anti-mind, anti-individual, and anti-progress. My love of books and ideas would have gotten me immediately purged, hung, smashed, or sent off to a gulag in very nearly every single communist nation.

[Tan Samay's] pupils hanged him. A rope was passed around his neck; then the rope was passed over the branch of a tree. Half a dozen children between eight and ten years old held the loose end of the rope, pulling it sharply three or four times, dropping it in between. All the while they were shouting, "Unfit teacher! Unfit teacher!" until Tan Samay was dead. The worst was that the children took obvious pleasure in killing.
----A Khmer Rouge execution From R.J. Rummels Power Kills site

Simply having books *at all* was a death sentence to most people in Cambodia and in China. My love of ideas, and of self expression, would have gotten me, and probably my family, rapidly killed in these countries, if this is not a living objective embodiment of evil where *thinking* is a crime punishable by death *then what is?*

In the case of communism, gray or non-linear thinking seems to be a desire to avoid making moral judgments. When we consider again Nazism, there is no question about its moral stature. Can the same people that say they can find some good in communism legitimately say that can find no good in Nazism? Having read a great book on Hitlers rise to power I can understand how individuals in pre-Nazi Germany could have felt oppressed and overburdened by the allies of WWI, and how these people who just wanted to have a decent life for themselves could end up promulgating on of the most murderous regimes in history. I also understand how with only minor changes our modern professors non partisan lectures on the cold war they would read just like modern neo-nazi propaganda blaming the push of Germany into war on a hyper vigilant anti-German Europe and the Jews. Its all context, and from the perspective of the German people leading up to 1935 it was not their fault! But they could not have done that without deliberately avoiding passing moral judgments on their own system, without deliberately dehumanizing their victims or opponents, or avoiding at all possible costs making moral assessments. There is no possible way a German citizen could have honestly morally defended Nazi policies so the only way for this rise to power to occur was to abdicate moral absolutism to vagueness, moral relativism, and evasion. The same is absolutely true of communism, which abdicates life, mind, and self to the collective and the state.

In cases where it is a life and death issue, one *must* pass moral judgment, moral indifference or agnosticism rewards immorality, just as absolute pacifism actually rewards violent and oppressive regimes by easily succumbing to their initiations of force. It is depraved indifference.

Its always good to be vigilantly skeptical of any kind of dichotomous us vs. them thinking. The vast majority of it is baseless and arbitrary. But just because right and wrong / good and evil / and us vs. them has been hijacked by every ethnicity, nationality, special interest group, and collectivist ideal, does not mean that the concepts of right and wrong and us vs. them are invalid. There are certain fundamentals of human standards by which every culture and individual action must be judged against, and that is the respect of life and individuality. Non judgment is the height of moral relativism and means anything goes, whether it is simply a disingenuous white lie or an attempted genocide.

Yes, most forms of partisanship are worthless and arbitrary, but that does not mean that holding oneself and others to certain moral ideals and ethical basics is wrong Many African cultures mutilate young womens genitalia is this right or wrong? Many Islamic cultures stone adulterers to death, is this right or wrong? Many traditionalist Chinese cultures used to bind young womens feet was this right or wrong? Many western Christian nations still mutilate male genitalia at birth is this right or wrong?

Witness the indifference today to the brutal oppression of Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, and North Korea. Witness the callous disregard for genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda and today in Darfur. Witness the left, our alleged defenders of human rights, and their complete and utter indifference in most cases, or worst, opposition to, the removal of one of the most brutal dictators of our time who slaughtered gay men and women and their families, executed dissidents, and held the world hostage. Witness that same callous disregard for the deaths and flagrant violation of every human right that permeates the dictatorships and theocracies in the Arab sea of tyranny in the middle east, and that same indifference to the tens of millions of deaths from Malaria the modern environmentalism movement has spawned by banning DDT. These are the fruits of moral relativism.

There are only two ways to completely end partisanship; to abolish all ideals, ethics, and moral codes which generate an us for them attitude (the liberal multi-culturalist moral relativist approach) or to abolish one side of the us vs. them conflict. In all these scenarios, the smallest minority are the defenders of the fundamental rights of sentient beings, the advocates of objective reality, those who base ethics on life. To deny any concept of moral foundation is to side indirectly and implicitly with the most brutal and murderous side of the us vs. them conflict. One may ask when does this partisanship stop, when everyone embraces one ideology? Yes, it stops when they all embrace fundamental rights, when all the other ideologies stop murdering and enslaving people who disagree with them. When they all accept, as a component and a foundation of their ideology, a respect for individualism, for life, and for freedom. Either that or it stops when one accepts any murder, oppression, slavery or assault as just someone elses culture and equally valid. Where do you stand?

We are never hesitant in defending our right to self, individuality, and life, but are seemingly always dismissive of everyone elses to such an extent that we are hesitant to morally condemn the most anti-self, anti-individuality, and anti-life ideology ever existed on this planet. I have no doubt that nearly every single one of those 170 million people loved their lives as much as I do mine, and you do yours, where is our compassion for them? Our vigilant defense of our own self and individuality is nothing less than an extremely dogmatic ideological stand, and in this we are the essence of black and white. We must presume axiomatically that everyone deserves that same amount of respect and thus rightly and justly morally condemn those ideologies which murder, enslave, and imprison people for nothing more than living, breathing, and thinking.

I can understand peoples hesitance to make any absolute moral declarations, but just because vile anti-individualist brain washing cults hi jack absolutism morality with their own morally arbitrary pronouncements doesnt mean that a moral foundation in objective reality, life, and individuality is wrong, or that morally condemning those ideologies opposed to those things is wrong.

I am Pro-free private life, pro-individualism, pro-science, pro-reason, pro-free speech, pro-liberal democracy, pro-free economic life, pro-capitalist, pro-west, etc and I apply these values directly too all people and accept the logical consequences of my deepest values, wholly and willingly.

Regards,

Michael



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Post 46

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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Thank you, Michael Dickey, for your compassionate article. The sentiment expressed in your article filled my heart and I literally had lumps in my chest. And thanks John for posting it.


Post 47

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 9:59amSanction this postReply
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John, if we factor in the many millions of Africans and Indians, so-called, killed by
Americans the figure of murders may approach Communist levels. Many of the US
backed regimes such as Guatemala, El Salvador, Brazil, Zaire, Indonesia, South
Vietnam, South Korea for starters have killed
many more millions total than any Communist regime except the USSR and China.
The 20 million figure for Hitler is off the wall and even the six million figure has come in for serious reexamination. But the bottom line is,
are you in real estate as WH Auden once asked someone who said 600,000 killed gays were nothing compared to millions of Jews.
Actually Mao probably killed over 100 million and he was brought to power by the US. Our protege
Chiang Kai-Chek killed over 10 million leftists in 1927 alone.
How does any of this exonerate US  foreign
policy ?  
BY THE WAY THOSE CHINESE AND SOVIET KILLINGS WERE NOT THE RESULT OF FOREIGN POLICY BUT DOMESTIC POLICY.
There goes your argument down the crapper.
US foreign policy did not save anyone including the Jews of eastern Europe or the millions upon millions of third worlders it delivered into tyranny.
Who was comparing Stalin with TR ?
That's a typical emotionalist rightist way of distorting an opponent's position.
Nor did I say moral relativism is a nonissue,
you are the champion moral relativist, you only attack official enemy states and overlook the crimes of your own.
Christianity has killed more people probably than communism. Again, are we talking real estate here ?
I disagree with much of Chomsky but he certainly is much more knowledgeable than
99% of Objectivists on foreign policy.
Rummy's research is not worth thye paper it is printed on, I've responded to him directly on
his hybperbolic crap. The greatest percentage genocide in world history is the US backed Indonesian genocide in East Timor in 1975-78, 200,000 out of 600,000 people, equivalent to 100 million Americans.
Hong, you are consistently unable to even begin to formulate an argument, I witnessed
Anthony Gregory demolishing you over at SOLO last year on these same issues. Put up
or shut up.
Spare me Dickey's very selective indignation at atrocities as well as his childish purple prose.
You rightist neocons simply Know Nothing.
There is a book coming out called The Black Book of Capitalism in Germany which claims over 500 million victims of capitalism !
Better tell Rummy !


Post 48

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:01amSanction this postReply
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Hong, what you are thanking John for is carrying coals to Newcastle or pandering to
your uninformed prejudices. Try using the
cranial apparatus to think for a change.


Post 49

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:13amSanction this postReply
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Mike-

Even when you do point out true oft-overlooked facts you are mixing them with some misinformation, bizarre tangents, bad style and hurting the anti-war arguments here overall. I don't buy people accusing you of being moral relativist or nutcase, but you sure aren't going to get anywhere accusing people here of being holocaust deniers or neoconservatives either. See Mark Humphrey's posts for some Objectivist anti-war argument that has finesse.

John-

I'd seen some correct points about Vietnam and had completely missed the line where Mike outright stated 'We invaded Vietnam...' A slip from propping up puppets to outright invasion - ouch! Thanks for pointing that out.

Your quoted Rummel section sounded contradictory on Mao's # - the text would support the high 70m # Mike had said, but the table says 35m that I've more commonly heard. Checking his site now it appears Rummel has recently revised his estimate of Mao's #s up to 73m, largely due to different interpretation of PRC govt's involvement in the famine.


Post 50

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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Aaron, since you haven't identified any specifics on misinformation I can't respond, if you do I will. Promise.
Andy Bowman is the equivalent of a holocaust denier as regards Israel.
The US did invade South Vietnam under JFK
in the early 60s, we told our puppets we were coming to drop B52s and set up concentration camps called strategic hamlets.
There were no differing interpretationd of PRC involvement in famine, it was a direct result of Mao's policy.
Rummy is unreliable even if he finally got it right on Mao.
My style is fine and my anti-war arguments have been strong, again no specifics from you
here either.
Mark's posts was fine but in no way contradicts mine.
Will be gone for hours but will respond if
anything else comes up.


Post 51

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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(My last post went up before reading post #47.)

Mike-

Please adopt an America-right-or-wrong, gung-ho, pro-war stance and apply your powers of argumentation in promoting it.

(Edited by Aaron
on 5/13, 10:26am)


Post 52

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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John, if we factor in the many millions of Africans and Indians, so-called, killed by
Americans the figure of murders may approach Communist levels.

Mike, no one alive today is responsible for what happened to native American Indians. And what happened to them anyway? They went from a primitive tribalistic culture of constant tribal wars with no concept of individual freedom to today, citizens of a nation that have many rights today that they would have never had pre-colonialism.

Many of the US
backed regimes such as Guatemala, El Salvador, Brazil, Zaire, Indonesia, South
Vietnam, South Korea for starters have killed
many more millions total than any Communist regime except the USSR and China.

Except USSR and China? So now we're picking and choosing our murderous communist regimes to tally up the death toll? Sorry but you can't cherry pick your data. The USSR and China were mamouthly large communist countries. You can't ignore what they did.


How does any of this exonerate US foreign
policy ?

Whatever evils were perpetrated by the West is not excusable, but exonerate? I have no doubt the West has been guilty of crimes against humanity, but it is trumped by the tremendous amount of good the West has done. I have no doubt Stalin was nice to his dog, but it can't blemish the overwhelming evil that Stalin and communism perpetrated, likewise whatever bad the West had been guilty of, it can't blemish the overwhelming amount of good it did for the world.


BY THE WAY THOSE CHINESE AND SOVIET KILLINGS WERE NOT THE RESULT OF FOREIGN POLICY BUT DOMESTIC POLICY.
There goes your argument down the crapper.


Except no Mike. I just listed the countries invaded by the Soviet Union and China, you can't cherry pick the data. The figure is probably closer to 170 million dead which included deaths from the entire Eastern European continent, which were invaded, all of the Republics of the Soviet Empire that were invaded and conquered, Tibet, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, all over sub-sahara Africa, Cuba, all over South America. These people are included in that death toll, and yes that figure also includes domestic killings but I guess those people don't count do they? Their lives don't matter?

US foreign policy did not save anyone including the Jews of eastern Europe

Mike that is utterly disgusting. The implication that the US was somehow responsible for the deaths of Jews in Eastern Europe under Stalin? Did the US make Hitler invade Russia? Did the US make Stalin retaliate, and did the US make the Soviets kill untold millions of people in Eastern Europe? You can't hold other people responsible for someone else's actions.

Nor did I say moral relativism is a nonissue,

And I quote from you Mike
"John, why should we play your crappy little neocon con game on the moral relativism nonissue ?"
Care to explain why now the contradiction?


you are the champion moral relativist, you only attack official enemy states and overlook the crimes of your own.

Crimes of my own state? Compared to the crimes committed by communism? You still insist Communist nations of the world were just as bad as the Western world? The crimes of my own state were minor comparitively. And most of the time the crimes that were commited, individuals were held to account.


There is a book coming out called The Black Book of Capitalism in Germany which claims over 500 million victims of capitalism !

And I'm sure it's full of lies and fallacies. Capitalism is the evil idealogy of this world that should be demolished Mike? You confuse Capitalism with Colonialism, and outright strawman the idealogy.


(Edited by John Armaos
on 5/13, 11:47am)


Post 53

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 11:39amSanction this postReply
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Oh my goodness me...

"illegally"

State the breach in international law and source it.

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Post 54

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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Hardesty said:
Hong, what you are thanking John for is carrying coals to Newcastle or pandering to
your uninformed prejudices. Try using the
cranial apparatus to think for a change.
The fact that you can say this to Hong, who lived through some of the horrors that you've only read about in crap written by that poor excuse for a human being, Chomsky, convinces me that you are no longer worthy of my attention.


Post 55

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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Ah, yes, I remember Anthony Gregory, whose grandparents fled Communism in North Korean, first to South Korean, and then to US, and yet Anthony is against American's Korean War Policy, among others. I wonder what his grantparents would say.

Post 56

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 3:59pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn, what did Hong do other than being born ? Chomsky is a brilliant scholar and actually KNOWS something about the topics under discussion here. He's arrogant and sometimes wrong but he's right quite a lot too.
Andy, the UN Charter, the Nuremberg Tribunals, ask any expert in international law and they will tell Israel's occupation is illegal.
Why not look up a B O O K for a change, I've referenced several here. W.T. Mallison,
Professor of History at George Washington U
in DC has written quite a bit about this. Under
our constitution international treaties are the supreme law of the law.
Hong, I've been to Korea, most oppose US foreign policy, there were at least as many atrocities committed by the US-UN-South Korean side as by the Reds.
John, read Kirkpatrick Sales book on The Conquest of the americas by Columbus, it was a brutal genocidal action that ultimately took 10 million lives north of the Rio Grande
and probably 10 times that number south of the Rio Grande Your demonic, comic book view of all communist states is a joke, you need to read something else besides your usual Far Right sources, the anti-commies have probably killed as many as the Commies, factor in Hitler, the 30 years
Religious Wars in Germany, the Inquisition
and they EXCEED the Commies.
So you can condemn the Black Book of Capitalism without EVER having read it ????
Bravo, Johnboy, spoken a true believer !
Moral relativism is a nonissue because I never endorsed it and YOU are a moral relativist when comes to the American Empire's crimes.
Read John Swomley's  American Empire.
I can't reproduce the full arguments for all the many sources that I have given, you need to get off your smug butt and do some honest research for a change.
These moralistic tirades you unleash do not take thye place of reasoned argument. You are a parody of a Birchnut.
Aaron, I don't need to adopt the America
Can Do As It Pleases argument, we have others here promoting that sorry line.


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Post 57

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 7:03pmSanction this postReply
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Chomsky is a brilliant scholar and actually KNOWS something about the topics under discussion here.


Chomsky is a brilliant linguist. He has however a poor understanding of history and political philosophy. Chomsky is known to cherry pick historical data (which you are guilty of as well) and misquote sources. He's also a known anarchist/socialist. He's a pseudo-intellectual.

John, read Kirkpatrick Sales book on The Conquest of the americas by Columbus


Why? It has nothing to do with the foreign policy of America in the past 60 years. You alredy tried that argument. No one is alive today that was responsible for something that happened 5 centuries ago. Or perhaps you believe in inherited guilt? The United States is responsible for actions that occured almost 300 years before it's creation?


the anti-commies have probably killed as many as the Commies, factor in Hitler,

Excuse me? Factor in Hitler? I was defending America and the west. I'm sorry Mike, I missed that part of history where Hitler was President of the United States. Was that after FDR?


Bravo, Johnboy, spoken a true believer !


Johnboy? I never once insulted you Mike. I addressed you by your correct name. If your going to deride me by calling me Johnboy, I have no use for you. You are obviously a troll.


YOU are a moral relativist when comes to the American Empire's crimes.


That doesn't make any sense. I never made any moral equivocations. How can I be a moral relativist when I made a moral judgement on which country was worse? You think they are both just as bad, that meets the definition of moral relativism. Do you understand what moral relativism is?


Post 58

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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If Hong objects I'll withdraw these:

but here's what she knows about communism

http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Zhang/My_Father.shtml

http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Zhang/The_Morning_of_June_4.shtml

As to Chomskey. I grew sick of his ideas before I even knew his name or had something better to counter him which I've since discovered before becoming an Objectivist.

---Landon



Post 59

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
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Wow, what a complete scumbag you are, Mike.  Absolutely no redeeming value to anything you say or your arguments.  All you do is argue by:
Authority - Read this, read that, read another - all of it worthless drivel no one would ever want to slog through (unless, of course, one wants to hate everything like you do, in which case it is a nice set of
Intimidation -  Your a MURDERER, they are MURDERERS, your statement is ACTIONABLE as SLANDER!!!!
Ad-Hominem - Here are some:  Bravo, Johnboy, spoken a true believer ! Your demonic, comic book view of all communist states is a joke - Spare me Dickey's very selective indignation at atrocities as well as his childish purple prose. You rightist neocons simply Know Nothing. 

There is a lot more, it just oozes from every pustule of the rotting flesh he calls argument.  Oh, and according to your logic, since you are supporting Communist states you are now just as guilty of all the murders there.  This is because "support" no matter what form it takes, or what degree of influence it actually accomplishes, if any, means that all killings now become yours.  Just a fucking joke.

However, one thing I want to address is the issue of Lend-Lease yet again: 
here is a quote from Zhukov about Lend-Lease:
"Speaking about our readiness for war from the point of view of the economy and economics, one cannot be silent about such a factor as the subsequent help from the Allies. First of all, certainly, from the American side, because in that respect the English helped us minimally. In an analysis of all facets of the war, one must not leave this out of one's reckoning. We would have been in a serious condition without American gunpowder, and could not have turned out the quantity of ammunition which we needed. Without American `Studebekkers' [sic], we could have dragged our artillery nowhere. Yes, in general, to a considerable degree they provided ourfront transport. The output of special steel, necessary for the most diverse necessities of war, were also connected to a series of American deliveries."
another quote of his:
"It is now said that the Allies never helped us . . . However, one cannot deny that the Americans gave us so much material, without which we could not have formed our reserves and ***could not have continued the war*** . . . we had no explosives and powder. There was none to equip rifle bullets. The Americans actually came to our assistance with powder and explosives. And how much sheet steel did they give us. We really could not have quickly put right our
production of tanks if the Americans had not helped with steel. And today it seems as though we had all this ourselves in abundance."


and these are the percentages of the total available to the Soviet military and industry that were supplied by America:

80% of all canned meat.
92% of all railroad locomotives, rolling stock and rails.

57% of all aviation fuel.
53% of all explosives.
74% of all truck transport.
88% of all radio equipment.
53% of all copper.
56% of all aluminum.
60+% of all automotive fuel.
74% of all vehicle tires.
12% of all armored vehicles.
14% of all combat aircraft.

The list includes a high percentage of the high grade steel, communications cable, canned foods of all types, medical supplies, and virtually every modern machine tool used by Soviet industry. Not to mention the "know-how required to use and maintain this equipment.

Winning the war required mobility and communications - all of which the allies provided to turn the Russians into a match for the Germans. 

Plus results in the west, less the actual invasion:
Perhaps he did not understand that nearly 2 million men were involved in the
defense of the Reich against the strategic bomber offensive.

75% of the Luftwaffe fighter arm was tied down defending German industry.

Perhaps he did not understand that nearly 2 million men were involved in the
defense of the Reich against the strategic bomber offensive.

75% of the Luftwaffe fighter arm was tied down defending German industry.

20% of all artillery ammunition was allocated to anti-air defense of Germany.


As a result of bombing, the Germans produced 35% less armor than they projected. 31% fewer aircraft (82% of that were fighters) and over 40% fewer trucks.

In a war where so much was so close in so many battles... The Allies needed everything they had to win.








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