RoR: Forum

This sounds very close to perpetual motion. Please point us to a link that shows how this works.

But it's not perpetual motion. It's driven by the catatlyst of whatever naturally-occurring energy form you choose, which the system is dependent upon.

As far as the link goes, right now I'm right in the middle of some hectic running around, but I'll find and post a link as soon as possible.

Post 21

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 2:12pm

The problem is most of the available hydrogen on earth is all ready burned, and we need to �un burn it� to use it as an energy storage medium. While you correctly note that hydrogen has almost three times the energy density per mass, it has about 1/3 the energy density per volume. That means you will need a storage container nearly four times the size to get the same range, and since hydrogen stored as a compressed gas is about 1 / 200 the density of a liquid, you cant store very much of it. If you chill it and make a liquid out of it, you lose about 1/3 of the energy in the process of cooling it and lose still more in the bleeding off process. What do you think is powering those liquid hydrogen fuel trucks? Yup, Diesel gas. Additionally, hydrogen being the smallest element loves to diffuse through seemingly solid barriers, like the steel pips and tanks we use for our current fuel storage systems, hydrogen also makes most kinds of steel brittle and week the longer it is in contact with it. To get around the energy density per volume problem you need to bind hydrogen to some other medium, like a metallic �sponge� or something similar. Or you could �bind� hydrogen with another element until it forms the lightest liquid at standard atmospheric temperature and pressure. Of course the best atom for that would be carbon, so HEY, we all ready have a great hydrogen binding medium and storage and transportation system, its called gasoline!!! In fact, there is more hydrogen in a gallon of gasoline then there is hydrogen in a gallon of liquid hydrogen. You�re best bet is to look for the lightest liquid hydrocarbon (the most hydrogens per carbon atom) and reform that fuel in situ into a hydrogen. Or screw it and just burn the carbon as well.

I recommend checking out
The Hype About Hydrogen: Fact And Fiction In The Race To Save The Climate (Hardcover) � by Jospeh J Romm, the DOE Energy Advisor under Clinton�s administration. This book is a detailed examination of all the major possible uses and implementation of hydrogen into the economy.

Post 22

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 2:21pm

Well, okay... If that's your game, fine. Here, for your viewing enjoyment, is a listing of all the various heats of combustion from several common fuels:

Fuel____________MJ/kg___Mcal/kg_BTU/lb
Hydrogen________141.9___33.9____61,000
Gasoline________47______11.3____20,400

As I said above, what you leave out is the Volumetric Energy Density

Material_____Volumetric_____Gravimetric
Diesel_______10,942Wh/l_____13,762Wh/kg
Gasoline_____9,700 Wh/l_____12,200 Wh/kg
*liquid* H2__2,600 Wh/l_____39,000* Wh/kg

from - http://xtronics.com/reference/energy_density.htm

If weight is all you care about (like in rockets), H2 is a great fuel, but if you want an energy source for transportation, VOLUME is much more important, and in that area H2 (even Liquid Hydrogen) is pathetic

Post 23

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 2:53pm

Michael F Dickey, those are some very excellent points, especially about the volume and trouble with liquid hydrogen.

Mr. Jeremy M. LeRay, there is no "catalyst" action going on that is somehow performing some exothermic reaction to create energy. Instead, you have water, you have a tiny bit of solar energy coming in making a tiny bit of the water into hydrogen/oxygen, and then you burn the hydrogen/oxygen. You can't have produced any more energy with the burning than the energy absorbed with electrolysis. You couldn't have absorbed much energy with electrolysis since the source of the absorbed power is solar power. Plus, electrolysis and burning are not 100% efficient, you have considerable inefficiencies in there. Might as well just go with strait solar panel cells to electric motor (completely remove hydrogen/water from the system). And solar panels are extremely expensive and not practically effective for transportation (unless you are in an unusual situation like Mars).

Post 24

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 3:45pm

> you have water, you have a tiny bit of solar energy coming in making a tiny bit of the water into hydrogen/oxygen,

No way!! It is not possible...or at best it is a grossly over-simplification of an infinitely complex process.

Post 25

Tuesday, May 1, 2007 - 4:16pm