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Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 6:36amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,
There was a follow up on this in the Science section of yesterday's Times.  It's here.  It talks about Laws of Nature, a topic near and dear to my heart.  I think that it clearly shows that this stuff is too important to leave to the physicists.
Thanks,
Glenn


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Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 3:36pmSanction this postReply
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From Science as Faith article
 
Exercise for the Reader (Can you find what's wrong in any of the following 6 quotes?):
 
 
1. "Clearly, then, both religion and science are founded on faith — namely, on belief in the existence of something outside the universe, like an unexplained God or an unexplained set of physical laws, maybe even a huge ensemble of unseen universes, too."

2. "... the very notion of physical law is a theological one in the first place ... Isaac Newton first got the idea of absolute, universal, perfect, immutable laws from the Christian doctrine that God created the world and ordered it in a rational way."

3. "... physicists think of their laws as inhabiting an abstract transcendent realm of perfect mathematical relationships."

4. "... physicists declare a similar asymmetry: the universe is governed by eternal laws (or meta-laws), but the laws are completely impervious to what happens in the universe."

5. "... there is no hope of ever explaining why the physical universe is as it is so long as we are fixated on immutable laws or meta-laws that exist reasonlessly ..."

6. "... until science comes up with a testable theory of the laws of the universe, its claim to be free of faith is manifestly bogus."


Answers will be provided after a few days.

Ed


Post 2

Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 8:50amSanction this postReply
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To be clear, the above is an invitation to discover and post a found fallacy (in any of the 6 statements). I'm hoping for at least 1 attempt (as a brain-teaser) before I go ahead and take a crack at it myself.

Any takers?

Ed


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Post 3

Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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1. Simply untrue.

2. The first part is simply not true. The reference to Newton is meaningless because the definition of science is not whatever Newton thought.

3. I never studied philosophy, but isn't this Plato's idea of the Forms? So, this may apply to philosophers, but not to physicists.

4. He's merely proving his point. That they are impervious is what makes them laws.

5. The laws don't exist reasonlessly.

6. Another strawman.

Each of these statements are "strawmen". Also, each of the conclusions don't follow from the predicates.

Post 4

Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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Paul Davies is a very sloppy thinker. He's a proponent of the finely tuned universe argument for god. Yet the mathematical formula that describe my identity are finely tuned, and if slightly changed I would no longer be me. So Paul Davies thinks demonstrating the law of non-contradictory identity is proof of god. Because "god" (whatever the hell that means) made the universe non-contradictory. Go figure.
(Edited by John Armaos on 12/20, 2:37pm)


Post 5

Friday, December 21, 2007 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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Thanks guys. These arguments are enthymemes (arguments with presumed, but missing, premises). Here's how they look with pure, unadulterated reasoning (i.e, with these missing, presumed premises included):

(1)

a) Things outside the universe require faith.
b) Physical laws (just like religion), because they are "unexplained" in a certain sense of the term -- are outside the universe.
===============
c) Clearly, then, both religion and science are founded on faith — namely, on belief in the existence of something outside the universe, like an unexplained God or an unexplained set of physical laws, maybe even a huge ensemble of unseen universes, too.

And (b) is false


(2)

a) science is a subjective phenomenon (it depends on what's in the mind of a particular man).
b) Isaac Newton first got the idea of absolute, universal, perfect, immutable laws from the Christian doctrine that God created the world and ordered it in a rational way.
====================
c) [Therefore (because all of physical science depends upon what was in Newton's head)], the very notion of physical law is a theological one.

And (a) is false.


(3)

a) science depends on what a group of folks think (it depends on social metaphysics).
b) abstractions can't refer to concretes (because when they do -- they automatically invalidate those concretes).
c) physicists think of their laws as inhabiting an abstract transcendent realm of perfect mathematical relationships.
==================
d) [Therefore, physical laws are contained in a transcendent realm].

And at least (a) and (b) are false; and perhaps even (c) [for some physicists such as Einstein].


(4)

a) "real" laws are mutable, inconstant things which change in response to events in the universe.
b) physicists declare [that] the universe is governed by eternal laws (or meta-laws), but the laws are completely impervious to what happens in the universe.
===================
c) [Therefore, physical laws aren't "real" laws -- because they are understood as invariant things].

And (a) and (c) are false.


(5)

a) explaining why the universe is as it is is important & productive (rather than just a plain vanilla acceptance of reality as it is)
b) fixation on unchanging laws, which we cannot provide a meta-reality (read: beyond-reality) reason for, kills hope for this
==================
c) [Therefore], there is no hope of ever explaining why the physical universe is as it is so long as we are fixated on immutable laws or meta-laws that exist reasonlessly

And (a) and (c) are false.


(6)

a) physical laws should be able to be falsified by experiments which involve dynamics which actually supercede these laws themselves (i.e., supra-physical, or supra-reality dynamics) -- so that the laws can be the dependent VARIABLES, rather than the independent ones -- or else they must be believed on faith
b) science hasn't come up with one of these supra-reality experiments yet
==================
c) [Therefore], until science comes up with a testable theory of the laws of the universe, its claim to be free of faith is manifestly bogus.

And (a) is false.

;-)

Ed


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