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Post 0

Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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Wait a minute. $100 a visit! WTF am I doing working at any other job!

Post 1

Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 10:45amSanction this postReply
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I remember Scott Adams referring humorously in The Dilbert Future to people who get paid to telecommute, saying they likely masturbate "on the clock" while laughing to themselves, "I am getting paid to do this!"

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 8/12, 10:46am)


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Post 2

Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 11:17amSanction this postReply
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My question would be, just what type of father are you getting for your child using sperm from someone who is so happy to give it up for free? I can see a whole nation of compulsive masturbators and trenchcoat perverts.

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Post 3

Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 11:48amSanction this postReply
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Does Perigo know about this?

Post 4

Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
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Going from what I remember from law school, it's also illegal under US law to sell sperm. We circumnavigate the restriction by saying sperm can instead be gifted. The US donor -- notice, we don't call her/him a "seller" -- usually gets paid a flat sum, say $100, for expenditures incurred due to sperm donation. I'm guessing different states and institutions finagle their reimbursement policy to induce more donations.

Meanwhile, Canada donors get reimbursed only for actual expenditures incurred due to sperm donation, based upon proof of receipts, according to the FAQs on the Canada Assisted Human Reproduction Act site. I'm guessing the actual expenditures don't usually amount to much, and the hassle of producing receipts probably makes the process unworthwhile.

Jordan

 


Post 5

Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 4:47pmSanction this postReply
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I'm curious. Has there ever even been an attempted justification of why they made this illegal?

Post 6

Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 5:12pmSanction this postReply
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I'm curious as to what the expenses might be.  That may turn out to be the most distasteful thought since Teresa's 
John Dingell (D) Exposes All


Post 7

Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 5:13pmSanction this postReply
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It's illegal to sell almost all of your body parts - kidney, eggs, etc. (You can give away your blood. You can sell your hair. Well, maybe not you specifically).

The underlying premise is that you don't own your body. The public rationale is that only government control can prevent abuses that would arise if a market place of body parts arose.

Post 8

Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 5:30pmSanction this postReply
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I only wish I was 20 years younger. :c/   My eggs were fabulous. 

I'm certain there'd be a waiting list for my DNA.

(ha ha, Peter)


Post 9

Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 5:41pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan,

Lawmakers get squirmy when citizens start selling off their body parts for cash. I'm trying to figure whether sperm is an exception in the United States.

EDIT: Steve beat me to the punch. But the policy still allows you to own your body. You just can't sell it off. There are lots things we own that we can't sell (or even give away): marriage licenses, diplomas, jobs, certain expected inheritance. That's not to say the body parts should or shouldn't be on that last.

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 8/12, 5:44pm)


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Post 10

Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
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I remember hearing the argument that the prohibition against slavery, the selling of people, implies a prohibition against selling parts of people. Of course the problem is that a kidney is not a person.

The real reason for such prohibitions is obvious. Altruism and paternalism. Politicians know better than you. If you want to profit from something, prima facie that something must be suspect, if not obviously evil. Politicians have this strange idea that it is their job to pass laws. Eventually everything is made illegal.

What if we changed the Constitution to say that only the president could write laws, and that every bill he submits automatically becomes law unless at least one third of the legislature votes to block it? And that any existing law could be removed with a majority vote? Congressmen, unable to pass legislation, would judge their effectiveness by the laws they blocked or repealed.

Post 11

Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 9:32pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

You said, "There are lots things we own that we can't sell (or even give away): marriage licenses, diplomas, jobs, certain expected inheritance."

Marriage licenses are sold by county clerks, diploma mills sell diplomas, jobs are bought and sold every day (ask headhunters and contractors), factors will buy your inheritance for it's present value adjusted for risk and minus their profit. And I can sell the diplomas on my wall - if there were a buyer. I could sell a license or diploma to a recycler for the paper, if a fraction of a penny meant more to me than the printed meaning.

Some things can't be sold ONLY because there is no market for them. But here is the important part: We aren't prohibited from selling these things the way we are prohibited from selling a body part.
---------

You said, "But the policy still allows you to own your body." Ownership is best thought of as a bundle of rights and each of the rights is a relationship between you and the owned object. Take away some of the rights in the bundle and you no longer have full ownership. Take away important ones and you have seriously diminished ownership.
---------

When the government prohibits selling a body part, it is claiming that it holds that right - that portion of ownership. Morally, we are the only owner of our bodies, but legally we are in a state of shared ownership with the our bundle of rights to our body getting smaller and smaller, as the government's bundle grows.

Post 12

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 2:10amSanction this postReply
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I agree with Steve. I'm not seeing how you could be said to own your own body by any legal standard currently offerred. We aren't even approaching consistency on this. If it was about health, the law wouldn't prohibit the sales of nonessential and replaceable products of the body.

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Post 13

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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Are we sure that we want our bodies or body parts to be looked upon as commodities? If someone said, " I don't like my left hand, I think I'm going to cut it off", responsible people would do their best to prevent it, and to get that person psychological help.

Frankly, I don't see the concept "I need some money, so I'll sell one of my body parts" any more sane. It presupposes someone so lacking in self esteem, that they are unable to see past the immediate rewards, to the long term health consequences.

So I'd have to say that it is no more appropriate to sell off of body parts, than to sell out ones individual rights or ethical values. The fact that technology today makes it possible to change out body parts, does not, should not, relegate us to being the equivalent of an old car.

On the other side of the argument, there are cases where someone may want to donate an organ to a loved one (or for whatever reason). There are cases - e.g. kidney donors - where a person can survive quite well with just one of a set of organs. These cases involve months of testing to assure that the donor is healthy enough to survive well with the one kidney. The donor is counseled and well informed about all the ramifications of their decision. Plus the donor is given immediate priority should their remaining organ start to fail. All in all, it is done responsibly - the organ is not treated like a commodity, or the body like a parts shop.

The moment we start treating body parts like commodities, we are undervaluing ourselves, and it will be natural to those who get into that 'trade' to discount us as no more valuable than any other commodity.

jt


(Edited by Jay Abbott on 8/13, 8:18am)


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Post 14

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
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Ted:

re: My question would be, just what type of father are you getting for your child using sperm from someone who is so happy to give it up for free?

Beats me.

regards,
Fred

Post 15

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Per your post #10 - neat idea. Wonder if it'd work. We sort of have the reverse now where the president holds the veto power. That hasn't staved off much.

Steve,

Sure, clerks, colleges, and headhunters do sell licenses, diplomas, and jobs, respectively. But they don't have a right to use or possess what they are selling. We, who do have the right to possess or use those goods, may not sell them. (And this includes diplomas and licenses, which are not just pieces of paper.) 

I agree that this leaves us with a smaller bundle of ownership rights, but precluding the sale of these goods makes sense. These goods are special. Their value is derived from the nature of their specific recipient/buyer. For instance, my diploma's value is derived from my education; my license, from my particular ability or relationship; my job, from my qualifications. Anyone who uses my diploma, license, or job committing fraud. Accordingly, if I attempt to sell these goods, I'm committing solicitation of and possible conspiracy to fraud. 

Other goods, of course, don't work this way. Their value doesn't depend at all on the nature of a specific recipient/buyer. I daresay human body parts fall into this category. E.g., my kidney doesn't derive its value from my particular nature. So to this end, my comparison between diplomas and body parts is not useful.

*

I'm still trying to get a definitive answer here, but this link suggests that the National Organ Transplant Act of 1984 did not ban the sale of human hair, sperm, or blood. According to the article, ". . .Congress was exceptionally concerned about the rise of an organ market and mindful of the potential inequities that could arise if destitute donors were coerced into selling their organs." 

Jordan


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Post 16

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 1:00pmSanction this postReply
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Jay,

You are willing to give government an ownership stake in everyone's body - which sets a precedent for massive mischief on their part - and just because you are concerned that someone might behave irrationally and damage themselves! That is the driving force for the entire nanny-state. That takes an altruistic premise and gives it priority over individual rights. I have to say, you are working from a context that can only be described, at its root, as adjusting the ethics and the laws to suit possible irrationality as if that were the most important feature of the universe.

Jordan,

You appear to have bought into congresses stated rationale: ". . .Congress was exceptionally concerned about the rise of an organ market and mindful of the potential inequities that could arise if destitute donors were coerced into selling their organs."

That is the justification for the government being a part owner of everyone's body because we need to protect the poor from selling their property. Only a Marxist orientation sees voluntary economic transactions as "coerced" - and the nanny state treats classes of people as infantile (in this case, "the destitute")

The same rationale could be used to stop people from eating fast food because it could harm their health. Once you buy into the premise that it is moral of the government to violate ownership of one's body in any way at all, you have given the entire store away. There is but one initial owner of each individual person's body. It is the individual. If the government is allowed to infringe in any way, then they are the actual owner and all else is just us exercising arbitrary privileges the government allows at this time.

Post 17

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
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The moment we start treating body parts like commodities, we are undervaluing ourselves, and it will be natural to those who get into that 'trade' to discount us as no more valuable than any other commodity.

Kinda like how the state views people now. ;) 

Post 13 was a nice ethical argument, Jay, but it doesn't speak to the politics of it. Not everyone will be desperate enough to sell a kidney, but if they are, they should be allowed to trade as they see fit.  The law shouldn't treat people as stupid doofuses, or view them as such.  That's how the John Dingells of the world see his fellows.


Post 18

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 4:14pmSanction this postReply
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Jay, are you really saying that we should suspect the motives of people who want to sell their body parts for cash, but not the motives of those who wish to give their body parts away?

Of course there are nuts who want to castrate themselves, pluck out their own eyes, and so forth. It's a recognized syndrome for god's sake - but what does that have to do with rational people?

And by making trade in body parts illegal, you are radically driving up the market price for those who wish to sell - or steal. If you think it is irrational for people to sell body parts, is it your solution to increase tenfold the black market price using prohibition? Do you think that the type of people who sell under those conditions will be the more rational ones?

And can you be more specific in your worries? Once again this is like the sexuality debate, speaking in vague generalizations. You think it is irrational to sell body parts. What do you mean? Is it bad to sell eggs? Or are you talking about fingers, or faces? Is there even a market for fingers and faces? Or are we really talking kidneys? Do you think an open market on kidneys where hospitals will be up front about the procedure and where compensation and guidelines will be standardized will be worse than a system where getting a donation is based on chance, on guilt tripping relatives, or on shoddy third-world clinics and the pull of small-town Democrat NJ mayors and Rabbis? Read When Altruism isn't Enough if you want to see the principled and well-supported answer to your objections.
(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/13, 5:27pm)


Post 19

Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Steve,

I didn't mean to suggest that I accept Congress' reasons for the ban, only that I take them at their word for why they enacted the ban. You think they had some other motive?

Jordan



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