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Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 2:17pmSanction this postReply
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Here are a couple of quotes from the article, "I don't know how God creates. I don't know how we got here," he continued, wondering what God might tell him after he dies. "If God's like, 'Yup, you were a monkey once,' I'll be shocked, but I'll be cool with it."

Beck explained, "If God didn't create, if things evolve, then your rights evolve. You're not endowed by your Creator."


It is so sad that a bright person can so compartmentalize their mind as to be child-like and way more detached from reality than a little kid making sure that Santa will come down the chimney.

I'd be tempted to ask how it is that God will be able to speak with all new arrivals in heaven... I mean, I know that they are scheduled to be there for eternity so it isn't like there would be rush, but there would still be a bandwidth issue. Lots and lots of people dying every second on planet earth, so how does that work? I know... you just assume it is a miraculous thing - that God can do everything, blah, blah, blah.

How confused someone has to be to not even attempt to fit in evolution as a creation of God - I mean if I were a theist I'd try to fit those together. I'd just hypothesize that God created evolution which created man and now man exists he exists as a creature with a fixed nature from which we derive rights. Beck has no respect for science, and he doesn't understand evolution, but he is ready to declare that rights must evolve if we accept evolution.

How sad that the most effective defender of small government and individual rights in the media today is caught up in child-like irrational myths about the very foundation of individual rights.

We have a series of battles, the first of which is to stop the juggernaut in Washington via the Tea Party and a series of elections (all the while continuing to educate). Then there will be a gigantic battle waged when we have the next major emergency. And the second front we will be fighting on will be at the level of ethics and will address the source of rights.

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Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
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O'Donnell is nuts for getting into the conversation. Its completely irrelevant.

Beck's just a dope, for the same reason.


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Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
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I wish Robert Tracinski would get a TV show. Glenn Beck is a clown.

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Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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Despite how idiotic his religious view are, this man has done more to fire up voters and to educate people of political realities and will actually be the Thomas Paine of our century.

And there is another thing to be aware of. His continuing call for religious behaviors, and for faith, hope and charity (as he defines them) are correct, NOT in content, but in the sense of recognizing that we need to be moral and ethical and honest and responsible. I think he is very tapped in on a subconscious level to what is needed in our culture at this point in time. But he doesn't have the correct moral/epistemological base. He is sold on his Christian views which are awful, but he is calling for a return to principled behavior. He recognizes that we will need solid principles to sustain us in future if find ourselves living in a collapsed economy. He is rejecting the pragmatic and the relativistic approach to morality. He knows that it isn't enough to vote tea party - that we must be people of integrity. Too bad he picked the wrong set of absolute moral principles.

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Friday, October 22, 2010 - 3:15amSanction this postReply
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Despite how idiotic his religious view are, this man has done more to fire up voters and to educate people of political realities and will actually be the Thomas Paine of our century.

But now he's sabotaging it with stupidity. I'm done with the guy.

Laure,

I have never seen or heard Tracinski speak, but what a great idea!


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Friday, October 22, 2010 - 6:54amSanction this postReply
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"Did evolution just stop?" Beck asked rhetorically. "I haven't seen the half-monkey/half-person yet. ... There's no other species that's developing into half-people."



Steve's right that Beck's thinking on this matter is childish. The "Missing Link" (i.e., a non-human hominid) has been scientifically discovered -- but many folks don't want to admit it:



source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecus

"I don't know how God creates. I don't know how we got here," he continued, wondering what God
Beck explained, "If God didn't create, if things evolve, then your rights evolve. You're not endowed by your Creator.



There's actually not a big problem with this. It seems to be a simple account of the facts. Evolved man has rights because of the unique difference between him and ape. Ape's don't and for the same reason. It's like Beck doesn't understand that it's philosophically proper to conclude that there are "natural kinds" of things (rather than diety-stipulated "chosen kinds" of things). It's a primacy of consciousness view to think that every difference had had to be chosen rather than natural.

I blame the skepticists and the existentialists and, of course, Kant (wouldn't want to ever give him a pass) for doing what they could to destroy the notion that things have "natural kinds." What a terribly destructive enterprise.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 10/22, 12:48pm)


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Friday, October 22, 2010 - 6:12pmSanction this postReply
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Maybe that's why Beck believes Darwin is responsible for racism, eugenics, and the Holocaust.

He's making an outright fool of himself, and by extension, his viewers.  



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Friday, October 22, 2010 - 10:16pmSanction this postReply
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The problem is you can't expect people to take your political views seriously, if your general approach to ideas is unscientific and intellectually lame. Beck and company are portraying themselves as uneducated yahoos.

Then there's the latest gaff by Christine O'Donnell who expressed astonishment that separation of church and state is in the First Amendment, which clearly states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

If that's not bad enough, Newt Gingrich is now endorsing Star Parker who opened her speech at a Christian Coalition conference by saying, "Anybody that believes in separation of church and state needs to leave right now." This lovely lady rejects evolution because it conflicts with the Biblical story of creation, and opposes birth control because the Bible says to "go forth and multiply."

With friends like these, who needs enemies?!

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Friday, October 22, 2010 - 11:08pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I agree with everything you said except this, "...you can't expect people to take your political views seriously, if your general approach to ideas is unscientific and intellectually lame.'

He has sold 35 million books, frequently with has more than one book on the best selling list, he attracted around half a million people to the Washington mall, and is more responsible than anyone else (excluding Obama and company :-) for the Tea Party. So, his political views are being taken seriously.

We could say, "So what? People are idiots and will believe in anything," but that ignores how prescient he has been in the political realm.

I would say that he is only able to speak with considerable intelligence and logic in the realm of politics, while speaking nonsense in the religious area because the human mind allows people to commit the epistemological sin of compartmentalizing not just in content but also in methodology - reason in one compartment and faith in the other. And the compartment wall is such that contradictions don't warrant consideration beyond logic-free rationalizations.

I think we should pay more attention to this phenomena since it is so prevalent. This nation is the most rational in so many ways yet we are one of the most religious of people in the world.

The other reason we should pay attention to this is that we share some of the things that exist in the way most Americans hold Christianity - personal responsibility, a belief in universal moral values, and an agreement that man has freedom of choice. I don't need to list the many and major disagreements we have with any faith-based, altruistic belief system, but in many political conflicts we are closer to religious folk than to the far left and their moral relativism and abandonment of personal responsibility and volition.

Outside of Objectivism, we have highly educated people who are less likely to be religious yet adopt the idiotic panoply of far left positions while less educated people are more likely to support free enterprise and see through most of the far left nuttiness - but more of them are highly religious. It is really weird... in many ways those with a better grasp on day to day values and common sense are those without an education and in spite of being compartmentalized with religion.

Beck is this typical American but taken to the extreme - far superior grasp of the left's idiocies and a far more extreme investment in religious views.

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Long-term, this marriage of capitalism and mysticism is not a good sign. The religious right wants religion in public life. They do not want a separation of church and state. They want their Christian religion to dictate government policy. They oppose abortion rights and family planning. They are strongly opposed to personal choice in private conduct. They are philosophically and scientifically naive, and they will not earn the respect of intellectuals who have a strong influence on higher education and who shape public opinion.

At some point, this has got to change. Intellectuals must eventually recognize capitalism as respectable, if it is ever to gain a strong and enduring foothold in American life. As Peikoff once said, there are two ways to destroy an idea: One is to attack it outright; the other is to defend it badly. The religious right is defending capitalism badly. They may gain some short-term victories here and there, but any success they achieve will not last.

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 1:43pmSanction this postReply
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Very well put, Steve.

Ed


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Post 11

Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 5:46pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, just one observation if I may. You said here:

They are philosophically and scientifically naive, and they will not earn the respect of intellectuals who have a strong influence on higher education and who shape public opinion.


But when someone who was a proponent of laissez-faire Capitalism came forth and was not philosophically or scientifically naive, the intellectuals who have a strong influence on higher education simply marginalized her. I'm thinking of Rand of course. So does it matter at all to these so-called intellectuals who argues for Capitalism? I don't think they have the intellectual honesty to care.

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 6:47pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Long term or short term there is no good marriage between Capitalism and mysticism. We agree on that. As a matter of fact there is no good marriage between any rational, intellectual discipline or endevor and mysticism. And you are correct that the religious right wants to impose religious views of different sorts via government force.

You say that they are strongly opposed to personal choice in private conduct - yes and no. They often support freedom of choice in some areas and oppose them in others, while the left supports freedom of choice in some areas and opposes it in others.

When you read what I wrote, you'll see it isn't an embrace of christianity or mysticism or faith (all of which are abhorent to me) - it is instead a recognition that most Christians are allies for purely political battles in most areas until we have stopped the current march to dictatorship and then from the winning battlefield, continue our education on more fundamental princples. At a sense of life level most casual christians - those who believe but don't practice or attend church very often and are simply hard working average Americans - are our allies. We both support individual choice (with the possible exception of abortion), free enterprise, success via personal effort, etc. Because we work together to defeat ObamaCare or Pelosi/Reid/et.al. doesn't mean we cease to oppose the imposition of religious views. The number of people who are christian but don't want any part of a theocracy is extremely large. The hard-core religious right is a tiny fraction of our political landscape. I want to draw a bright line between those who are in politics to effect religious changes and those who happen to be religious but are not attempting to impose religious views. Although much less extreme this is like the difference between the average muslim and the terrorists. And the parallel carries in another way: The fastest, most likely path to success is to get the moderates to join with us in our battle.
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You wrote, "They are philosophically and scientifically naive, and they will not earn the respect of intellectuals who have a strong influence on higher education and who shape public opinion. "

Nearly all of those who are in the academy and are progressive will never respect anyone who fundamentally opposes statism. (I sanctioned John for his post.)

There is some of the which-comes-first, the chicken or the egg, in this. Until the demand for intellectual capitalists is higher, they won't find slots available, and in this marketplace it is the work of the intellectuals that helps generate the demand. (Obama's policies create economic chaos, the chaos spurs people to find better answers, that is demand for capitalist answers), the increased demand opens the market - more niches - and the increased product educates those who want answers, and that increases the sophistication of those wanting answers (but it is still early in that cycle).
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You wrote, "Intellectuals must eventually recognize capitalism as respectable, if it is ever to gain a strong and enduring foothold in American life. "

This is true, but it is unlikely that those who are today's progressive intellectuals will change their positions so far as to become friendly to Capitalism - that degree of personal conversion is very rare in someone who has finished their upper degrees. The path for change in this area is via replacement of the intellectuals. Let the eductational system become private and let the pressure from consumers and administrators and pressure groups (e.g., tea party) focus on changing the requirements for instructors and over time the old intellectuals will be replaced. Also, the culture and the market place will begin to change who is listened to and the niche for intellectual capitalists will expand while the niche for leftists will diminish. We are seeing that already.
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It is critical to understand what battle field one is fighting what fight on. It you attempt to fight for intellectual correctness at a philosophical level (which we should) but mistake the mid-term elections as where that battle should be fought, you will lose.

There is an order to things. We need to stop the changing of laws by replacing the representatives. That will take place over several cycles to get a body that will start reversing statism. Once that is well underway, we need to use that win, and those representatives to change the pressures that bear on the educational system (out with grants, out with unions, out with tenure, convert to private education, etc.). Then ramp up a campaign to isolate those who are in politics for religious purposes and to gain agreement that church and state must stay very separate. And all the time arguing on philosophical ground, in philosophical arenas for rational egoism and reason over faith or mysticism.

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 6:47pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Ed.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2010 - 10:05amSanction this postReply
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I actually think Christine O'Donnell meant to use a more sophisticated argument but had no ability to do so.  She said that there is no constitutional "wall" or "separation" between church and state, which is an interpretation of the 1st amendment, vs. the "establishment" of religion, which means a state religion, in the constitution. 

It is a subtle difference, one she could not pull off, and I am not certain I agree with, though it has some merits.  The point is that it would prohibit government from dictating religion, but some interpret it not to mean "no christmas trees in the town square" which is the other end of the interpretation.  I agree it is doubtful that constitutes "establishment" as the founders had in mind.


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Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 1:10amSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

I agree that she had an argument in mind but couldn't pull it off. The phrase "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution. It was from a 1982 letter written by Jefferson. The first amendment says that "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

There are those among the religious right who interpret that to mean that it is okay to pass laws regarding religion as long as they don't constitute the creation of a state religion - like the Church of England was at the time of our revolution. They point at the non-denominational prayer sessions the founders had at the start of each congressional session and the religious references in their writings and they want to have more prayer and non-denominational religious activities in public life, in government and they are attempting to argue that it does not constitute creation of a state religion as long as it stays non-denominational.

But the concept of "separation of church and state" for me, and I suspect for Jefferson and Madison, means more of an intellectual freedom where the state is prohibited from endorsing any viewpoint - and only makes laws that arise from constitutional powers that deal with actions not thoughts. And that the state should stay separate from all philosophical or religious positions. That was the way Locke saw it and he was the primary inspiration for Madison who crafted the constitution. Locke was clear in his moral claim that belief not be compelled by violence.

Madison, author of the bill of rights, wrote an essay on religion which goes into great detail about the dangers of letting religion into law. It puts the lie to the religious rights claim that these religious founders intended to mix church and state, but just not have a national church.

You can see both arguments on this at the Wikipedia article and see a strong statement of the Christians on its Discussion page.

The supreme court has a number of rulings that interpret the constitution to mean a separation of church and state and have used those terms even though they aren't in the constitution.

From Wikipedia: The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another. The first approach is called the "separation" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferential" or "accommodation" interpretation.

The Christmas tree should be treated as a secular token of a celebration of holiday that once was Christian, but is now prevalent in across American culture. It should not be seen as limited to or supportive of religious dogma. On the other hand, the ten commandments outside of a courthouse is preferential to one religion over another. And because Atheism has to be seen as a counter to Christianity as much Islam or Buddhism, then any mention of God in law is unconstitutional by being preferential. That's my take on this issue.


(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 10/27, 1:21am)


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