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Friday, December 3, 2010 - 1:16pmSanction this postReply
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And here is the full study:


Ed


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Post 1

Friday, December 3, 2010 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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I'm not sure exactly what the study was (I only read the linked article). But the author of the article overlooks that evolutionary success results from successful reproduction, not duration of life.

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Post 2

Friday, December 3, 2010 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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I only scanned the full study, but wonder if they suitably controlled for age (and maybe sex and income). Suppose the caretaker population was younger (on average) than the non-caretaker population. That age difference by itself might be sufficient to explain the mortality difference.

If I were doing the study, I would consider comparing (a) the caregiver mortality rates with mortality rates from the same age-sex distribution as the caregivers drawn from the U.S. population as a whole and (b) the non-caregiver mortality rates with mortality rates from the same age-sex distribution as the non-caregivers drawn from the U.S. population as a whole.

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Post 3

Friday, December 3, 2010 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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My first thoughts were on the same lines as Merlin's.  It seems natural that those providing care are likely to be healthy, maybe younger, with probably less drug addicts or serious criminals.  Even if there was no actual advantage to caregiving, just by selecting those people who are fit, healthy, and less likely to be criminals, and comparing them to everyone else, you'd expect a difference.  On top of that, if they kept the care-recipients in the "control" group, there'd be another bias since they are likely unhealthy and would bring down that average.  Didn't read the study, but they'd have to be very careful.

Even if they did a more general study, not just care-givers, they'd probably find that the givers in society are healthier, wealthier, and more successful than the takers.  Altruism demands sacrifice of the able to the less able.  Of course we would expect that the givers are the more able, while their beneficiaries are less so.  It's self-selecting.

It would be difficult to get the study right, if your intent was really to prove that altruism is better.  Better than what?  Better than being lazy, criminal, and short-sighted?  Or an 'average' that includes all of those people and some regular people?  Wouldn't it still be selecting based on some important characteristic, like a desire to act morally?  And then compare it to the people who don't think morality or principles matter?  I'm guessing if you did a similar study with other ethical ideas, like honesty, you might also see major differences.  Put people who take honesty very seriously, remove them from the liars or non-serious truth tellers, and compare.


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Saturday, December 4, 2010 - 7:01amSanction this postReply
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Saturday, December 4, 2010 - 7:44amSanction this postReply
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Luke, I thought of that, too, but was unsure about the fit. "To lie" means knowingly saying what is false, and maybe they said what they did unknowingly.

Post 6

Saturday, December 4, 2010 - 12:40pmSanction this postReply
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People lie to themselves all the time and then "honestly" share those willful self-delusions with others all the time.

Just look at religion.

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Post 7

Saturday, December 4, 2010 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
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Since it's in our self-interest to live a long life, the point of the article seems to be that we further our own interest by helping others, which it interprets as being "selfless." So, what it's evidently saying is that if we want to do what's in our self-interest -- live a long life -- we should NOT do what's in our self-interest -- which, of course, is nonsense.

And then on top of that, the article misrepresents Rand's view of "altruism" by equating it with benevolent behavior, ignoring the fact that Rand used the term as it was used originally by Comte who coined it, namely as self-sacrifice for the sake of others.

(Edited by William Dwyer on 12/04, 12:47pm)


Post 8

Saturday, December 4, 2010 - 4:11pmSanction this postReply
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Well put, Bill.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/04, 4:11pm)


Post 9

Sunday, December 5, 2010 - 2:38amSanction this postReply
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From the study I hyperlinked to above:

Unlike prior studies of caregiving, which typically compare caregivers (e.g., people with a spouse in poor health) with noncaregivers (e.g., people with a spouse in good health), this study assessed caregiving (hours of care provided to a spouse) for every individual.
Let me get this straight. You want to find out if giving care to the sick or dying shortens or extends your life and, in your data sample, you include the sick and dying (as examples of non-caregivers)?! That's preposterous! What in the world is going on here?! Of course care giving is going to be seen to be life extending -- if half of your freaking control group is already sick or dying!

We computed survival time for respondents from the day of the 1993 interview until death or the date of the last interview.



Now, let's say you wanted to lie with statistics. What you do then is find everyone in the study who wasn't a caregiver -- and you perform your "last interview" with them real early on. Now, if you assume those people die the day after the inteview -- as it looks like these researchers might have done -- then, Voila!, you get the entirely-fabricated result that non-caregivers die before caregivers.

ˇ°On the days your spouse helped you, about how many hours per day was that?ˇ± Responses to these questions were then used to calculate the number of care hours per week. The resulting variable was nonnormally distributed, so ... we created a dummy variable to indicate whether the care recipient had received 0, from 1 to 14, or 14 or more hours of care a week from the respondent.
Maybe Merlin can chime-in here, but is it really all that smart to create dummy variables? Is it honest? Can you lie with a dummy variable? Enquiring minds want to know.

Among individuals with one or more impairments in ADLs (n = 673), for example, nearly half (n = 333) reported receiving no help from their partner.
For perspective, about 3370 folks were in the study and 909 (~27%) of them died. If the above is an indication of how many folks were not caregiving (n = 333) and of how many folks were caregiving (n = 340), then we've got a death total that exceeds the sample size.  Must be that folks who got care weren't limited to folks with one or more impairments in Activities of Daily Living (ADLs). Besides ADLs ("eating, transferring, toileting, dressing, bathing, walking across a room"), the study also mentions "instrumental" ADLs (IADL), such as "preparing meals, grocery shopping, managing money" and basic cognitive impairment. It's a good guess that many (most?) who got care where in these last 2 groups.

The test of the unadjusted association of care hours and mortality demonstrated that the highest level of caregiving (ˇÝ 14 hr per week) was associated with a reduced risk of mortality (p = .012), but that a lower level of caregiving (1¨C14 hr per week) was unrelated to mortality risk (n.s.). When hours of care and spousal-need variables were considered simultaneously (Model 1), the hazard ratio for high care hours (i.e., ˇÝ 14 per week) was significant (p < .0001).
The problem with factoring in spousal-need (someone who is really bad off) is that an assumption is attached to it and that assumption is this: if your spouse is in serious medical need, then you are more likely to die early. So, when they say they "considered" hours of care and spousal-need simultaneously, then they assume caregivers should have this astronomical death rate and -- if they don't -- well then that means that caregiving extends life. Let's say they assume that high-need spouses take 7 years off of your life. Let's say they found a normal death rate. What they do then, is proclaim that caregiving adds 7 years to your life (because of their prior assumption that high-need spouses take that much away).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/05, 2:55am)


Post 10

Sunday, December 5, 2010 - 7:34amSanction this postReply
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Firstly, I read the whole study this time. I withdraw most (not all) of my reservation about their suitably controlling for age, sex and income. The study says:
To account for the complex design, we used Cox proportional hazards models and multivariate analyses to calculate the association between each baseline measure and respondents’ survival time. The hazard models considered weights used to represent the national population, including person-level sampling weights (post-stratified at the person level to 1990 totals for census region by race-ethnicity, sex, and age).
I still have reservations about the study. For one, the sample is pretty small, with only 644 caregivers (306 with 1-14 hours and 338 with 14 or more hours).

Ed T. wrote:
From the study I hyperlinked to above:

Unlike prior studies of caregiving, which typically compare caregivers (e.g., people with a spouse in poor health) with noncaregivers (e.g., people with a spouse in good health), this study assessed caregiving (hours of care provided to a spouse) for every individual.
Let me get this straight. You want to find out if giving care to the sick or dying shortens or extends your life and, in your data sample, you include the sick and dying (as examples of non-caregivers)?! That's preposterous! What in the world is going on here?! Of course care giving is going to be seen to be life extending -- if half of your freaking control group is already sick or dying!
What in the study led you to posit that?
Now, let's say you wanted to lie with statistics. What you do then is find everyone in the study who wasn't a caregiver -- and you perform your "last interview" with them real early on. Now, if you assume those people die the day after the inteview -- as it looks like these researchers might have done -- then, Voila!, you get the entirely-fabricated result that non-caregivers die before caregivers.


Maybe you should dial down your cynicism "thermostat."  :-)
we created a dummy variable to indicate whether the care recipient had received 0, from 1 to 14, or 14 or more hours of care a week from the respondent (from the study)
Maybe Merlin can chime-in here, but is it really all that smart to create dummy variables? Is it honest? Can you lie with a dummy variable? Enquiring minds want to know.


I'm not concerned about that. See here and here. It is a way to categorize the input data. Misrepresenting with statistics is usually by confounding. I'm confident there are ways to confound by using dummy variables, but I see no evidence that was done in this study.
For perspective, about 3370 folks were in the study and 909 (~27%) of them died. If the above is an indication of how many folks were not caregiving (n = 333) and of how many folks were caregiving (n = 340), then we've got a death total that exceeds the sample size.
Where did you see the latter numbers? The number of non-caregivers was 2732 per here.


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Post 11

Monday, December 6, 2010 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin, I said:

Let me get this straight. You want to find out if giving care to the sick or dying shortens or extends your life and, in your data sample, you include the sick and dying (as examples of non-caregivers)?! That's preposterous! What in the world is going on here?! Of course care giving is going to be seen to be life extending -- if half of your freaking control group is already sick or dying!
And you asked:

What in the study led you to posit that?
It's all in my quote. When they said:

Unlike prior studies of caregiving, which typically compare caregivers ... with noncaregivers ... this study assessed ... every individual.
... then that means they included the sick people. There are 4 kinds of people in this study:

1) people giving care to a sick spouse (caregivers)
2) sick spouses getting care
3) people not giving care to a sick spouse (noncaregivers)
4) sick spouses not getting care

As the authors mention, prior studies compared 1 & 3 only. This study includes everybody (1-4). Did I make my point?

Maybe you should dial down your cynicism "thermostat."  :-)
Okay, you may be right. But I'm pretty sure that you need to dial it up a little, too.

;-)
The number of non-caregivers was 2732.

Yep. I was kind of thinking out loud. You can see me discovering where these people come from in my very next sentence in that paragraph.

Ed


Post 12

Monday, December 6, 2010 - 6:39pmSanction this postReply
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Ed T. wrote:
It's all in my quote. When they said:


Unlike prior studies of caregiving, which typically compare caregivers ... with noncaregivers ... this study assessed ... every individual.
... then that means they included the sick people. There are 4 kinds of people in this study:

1) people giving care to a sick spouse (caregivers)
2) sick spouses getting care
3) people not giving care to a sick spouse (noncaregivers)
4) sick spouses not getting care

As the authors mention, prior studies compared 1 & 3 only. This study includes everybody (1-4). Did I make my point?

If you mean the study used the people in groups 2 and 4 as lives used to calculate the reported mortality ratios, then I do not glean that from the report. What I glean is that the people in group 2 were interviewed in order to help determine/corroborate the level of care a caregiver was giving. Prior studies did not interview those given care at all.


(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 12/06, 6:43pm)


Post 13

Tuesday, December 7, 2010 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

You may again be right.

The quote talks about prior studies being about a group of folks married to sick people getting compared to a group of folks married to healthy people -- proclaiming that this new study goes beyond this historical dichotomy and records caregiving hours from every individual. Even reworded thusly, however, there is still ambiguity (about whether sick folk were included) which requires either trust or verification.

Ed


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Post 14

Wednesday, December 8, 2010 - 12:52pmSanction this postReply
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One reason the caregivers may have lived longer is that they were probably more focused on health as a discipline and may therefore have taken better care of themselves. So, rather than their "altruism's" being responsible for their longer lives, it may simply have been their focus on health care itself, both as it applies to others and to themselves.

One could do a similar study purporting to show that since dentists have healthier teeth and gums, it must be due to their "altruism" -- to their desire to help others maintain healthier teeth and gums.

Or a study showing that personal trainers enjoy greater physical fitness due to their "altruism" -- their desire to help others improve their physical fitness. Etc.

Correlation, after all, is not causation.

P.S. It must be remembered, of course, that the way they're using "altruism" is not the way Rand used it.

(Edited by William Dwyer on 12/08, 1:05pm)


Post 15

Thursday, December 9, 2010 - 9:26amSanction this postReply
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Excellent points, Bill.

Ed


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