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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 12:43pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,
Participants with low education level and greater eudaimonic well-being had lower levels of interleukin-6, an inflammatory marker of disease associated with cardiovascular disease, osteoporosis and Alzheimer's disease, than those with lower eudaimonic well-being, even after taking hedonic well-being into account.

Interesting. Thank God I didn't finish my Master's Degree and I also didn't adopt a whim-worshipping, subjectivist hedonism! It looks like you guys may be stuck with me for a long ... long ... time.

:-)
Over a seven-year period, those reporting a lesser sense of purpose in life were more than twice as likely to develop Alzheimer's disease compared with those reporting greater purpose in life ...

And over a five-year period they were significantly less likely to die—by some 57%— than those with low purpose in life.

Beside being on Rand's list of cardinal values for humans, I claimed -- a few years ago -- to have discovered 7 universal values for humans:

beauty
freedom
friendship
health (mental and physical)
knowledge
purpose
self-esteem

It's neat to see some scientific evidence validating at least part of this.

:-)
The two types of well-being aren't necessarily at odds, and there is overlap. Striving to live a meaningful life or to do good work should bring about feelings of happiness, of course.

Right.

Simply engaging in activities that are likely to promote eudaimonic well-being, such as helping others, doesn't seem to yield a psychological benefit if people feel pressured to do them, according to a study Dr. Ryan and a colleague published last year in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. "When people say, 'In the long-run, this will get me some reward,' that person doesn't get as much benefit," he says.
Wrong. 

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/15, 12:49pm)


Post 1

Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 4:42amSanction this postReply
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Ed, I am glad you cited that last passage as I wanted to single it for comment today. I think back to my residential high school days and the 60 hour "community service" requirement its program inflicted. I only did it because it came with the package, not because I enjoyed helping the people the program targeted. So I think there is some truth to the assertion that external pressure to "do good" actually harms the target of the pressure. The desire to do good needs to come from inside the agent, not from outside.

Today, I do a few things here and there that I think are worthwhile acts of benevolence. No one pressures me to do them. I choose to do them. That makes all the difference in the world.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 3/16, 5:06am)


Post 2

Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 8:40amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

Unless Prof. Richard Ryan (University of Rochester) is being misrepresented by Shirley Wang at the Wall Street Journal, he is a Kantian who thinks that it's not good to ...

--help others when told to or when pressured to (e.g., when people are watching or judging you)
--help others when you, in the long run, personally benefit

But that leaves only one kind of way to help others that, by exclusion, Dr. Ryan must think is the only way to be good:

--intrinsic (self-abnegating) sense of duty

Dr. Ryan doesn't totally come out and say this explicitly -- but few Kantians (or any altruists) are intellectually and operationally straightforward and forthright (open and honest).

Rand was right about the unprecedentedly-negative effect of Kant on intellectuals.

Ed

Post 3

Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 9:07amSanction this postReply
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I find it interesting how we draw different conclusions from the same brief passages. Ryan also says: "But people who primarily seek extrinsic rewards, such as money or status, often aren't as happy, says Richard Ryan, professor of psychology, psychiatry and education at the University of Rochester." Think of Keating versus Roark in The Fountainhead. Keating did architecture for money and status, not because he loved the craft. Roark embraced the opposite attitude, doing what he loved and letting the money and status follow. Who was happier?

Post 4

Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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Luke that's an interesting article. A similar theme I see in this article I saw in an article a friend of mine cited when I was discussing with him the decision to have children or not.

http://nymag.com/news/features/67024/

While most of the article discussed numerous studies citing how unhappy parents are compared to their childless peers, the end of the article discussed a study that took a different approach:

On the other hand, the married women were less depressed after they’d had kids than their childless peers. And perhaps this is because the study sought to understand not just the moment-to-moment moods of its participants, but more existential matters, like how connected they felt, and how motivated, and how much despair they were in (as opposed to how much stress they were under): Do you not feel like eating? Do you feel like you can’t shake the blues? Do you feel lonely? Like you can’t get going? Parents, who live in a clamorous, perpetual-forward-motion machine almost all of the time, seemed to have different answers than their childless cohorts.

The authors also found that the most depressed people were single fathers, and Milkie speculates that perhaps it’s because they wanted to be involved in their children’s lives but weren’t. Robin Simon finds something similar: The least depressed parents are those whose underage children are in the house, and the most are those whose aren’t.

This finding seems significant. Technically, if parenting makes you unhappy, you should feel better if you’re spared the task of doing it. But if happiness is measured by our own sense of agency and meaning, then noncustodial parents lose. They’re robbed of something that gives purpose and reward.

When I mention this to Daniel Gilbert, he hardly disputes that meaning is important. But he does wonder how prominently it should figure into people’s decisions to have kids. “When you pause to think what children mean to you, of course they make you feel good,” he says. “The problem is, 95 percent of the time, you’re not thinking about what they mean to you. You’re thinking that you have to take them to piano lessons. So you have to think about which kind of happiness you’ll be consuming most often. Do you want to maximize the one you experience almost all the time”—moment-to-moment happiness—“or the one you experience rarely?”

Which is fair enough. But for many of us, purpose is happiness—particularly those of us who find moment-to-moment happiness a bit elusive to begin with. Martin Seligman, the positive-psychology pioneer who is, famously, not a natural optimist, has always taken the view that happiness is best defined in the ancient Greek sense: leading a productive, purposeful life. And the way we take stock of that life, in the end, isn’t by how much fun we had, but what we did with it. (Seligman has seven children.)

About twenty years ago, Tom Gilovich, a psychologist at Cornell, made a striking contribution to the field of psychology, showing that people are far more apt to regret things they haven’t done than things they have. In one instance, he followed up on the men and women from the Terman study, the famous collection of high-IQ students from California who were singled out in 1921 for a life of greatness. Not one told him of regretting having children, but ten told him they regretted not having a family.

“I think this boils down to a philosophical question, rather than a psychological one,” says Gilovich. “Should you value moment-to-moment happiness more than retrospective evaluations of your life?” He says he has no answer for this, but the example he offers suggests a bias. He recalls watching TV with his children at three in the morning when they were sick. “I wouldn’t have said it was too fun at the time,” he says. “But now I look back on it and say, ‘Ah, remember the time we used to wake up and watch cartoons?’ ” The very things that in the moment dampen our moods can later be sources of intense gratification, nostalgia, delight.


Post 5

Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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I know several parents who say that if they did it again, they would not have children even though their children have grown into capable adults. The parenting experience cost them too much in terms of finances and freedom even though they love their children. Go figure!

Post 6

Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 10:00amSanction this postReply
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I wonder Luke how those parents evaluate their own happiness then. In the eudaemonic sense or in the fleeting moment to moment kind of happiness, i.e. hedonic happiness.

Post 7

Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 10:08amSanction this postReply
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They all seem pretty grounded to me but I do not know them that well.

I recall reading or hearing somewhere that Ayn Rand's mother condemned parenthood as a thankless burden (or similarly worded diatribe) so I am sure that experience did not exactly endear the younger woman to the notion of having children.

Post 8

Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 10:43amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

Keating did architecture for money and status, not because he loved the craft. Roark embraced the opposite attitude, doing what he loved and letting the money and status follow. Who was happier?
Good point. When Ryan said money and status aren't great ways to get happy, I knew he had a good point. Trouble is -- because of either Ryan or Wang -- the story shifted to sacrifice real quick. I don't know if the source of that shift is Ryan or Wang (which is why I added the qualifier: "unless being misrepresented by Wang"). The writing isn't clear enough on that point.

I guess I could say that if Wang believes everything she wrote -- then she's a Kantian altruist (leaving Ryan out of the picture altogether).

:-)

Ed


Post 9

Friday, April 8, 2011 - 7:20amSanction this postReply
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Parenting.

10,000 years = 500 generations.

Each one, raised by rookie management.

By the time we have educated ourselves through repeated rookie failures, it's over, and we become incredulous never listened to grandparents. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Our specie's continued renewal is nothing short of a miracle.



Post 10

Friday, April 8, 2011 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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OTOH, all is not regret, and all do not regret.

When I look back, my life before my kids seems like it was in black&white, and afterwards, in color.



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Post 11

Friday, April 8, 2011 - 8:26amSanction this postReply
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I find my childfree lifestyle colorful enough, thank you very much!

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Post 12

Saturday, April 9, 2011 - 7:28amSanction this postReply
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Luke:

You don't understand. I have to find them colorful, or else I would kill them and eat them.

(As would my parents have...)

See, by the time parents realize that, it is too late.

And let's face it; it is frowned upon to kill and eat your young.

But eventually, they surprise you. So, it is good that the initial urge is at least suppressed.


(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 4/09, 7:30am)


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