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Post 0

Monday, March 28, 2011 - 8:38amSanction this postReply
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Spin-off Rant

Next thing you know we are going to have a quota for women presidents.

[did I just say that out loud?]

And then there will be a quota for a certain percentage of Muslims in presidential cabinet positions. And then the quota system will become international, so that leaders of other countries get to run our country for a while (because they represent so much more of the "human race" or so much more of the "population of the earth").

p.s. I know there's a difference between quotas for the public sector vs. quotas for the private sector.

Ed


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Post 1

Monday, March 28, 2011 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
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I don't understand the obsession with employment discrimination. If a man and a woman apply for a job or promotion, someone will be accepted and someone, rejected. The person who is rejected is an individual, not a gender. The same is true for the person who is accepted. In such a case, it is individuals who gain and lose, not genders or collectives. So why is it somehow better if the individual who is rejected is a man instead of a woman? Someone must be accepted and someone rejected. If the man is rejected, he loses in a manner no different than the woman would if she were rejected. The fact that one happens to be a man and the other a woman is irrelevant.

Think of it this way. Suppose that two women are being considered for a job. If one of them is rejected, she will lose to the other woman in the same way that she would if the other applicant had been a man. Does it matter to her that the person hired instead of her is another woman rather than a man? No. She is in the same position either way. She didn't get the job. If her rejection is morally just in competition with another woman, why does it become morally unjust in competition with a man. And if it would not have been unjust simply because her competitor was a man rather than a woman, then why is it unjust if a majority of other women are rejected in favor of male applicants?

In order to make the case for employment discrimination, one has to show that the better qualified person was rejected and the less qualified person hired, a criterion that is independent of gender or ethnicity, since it can occur even between two women, if the less qualified one is hired in preference to the better qualified. But who should determine the employee's "qualifications" -- the EEOC or the employer? Clearly, it is the employer who should determine them, since he or she is the one who is paying the employee's salary and must bear the consequences of an employee's bad performance if the person doesn't work out. The government has no business dictating whom an employer can hire, if it is the employer rather than the government who must bear the cost of that decision. Anti-discrimination laws are a clear violation of the employer's right to manage his own business.

Besides, employers have a clear incentive to hire the most competent employees, since their bottom line depends on the success of that decision. In a free market, the better qualified people tend to get hired anyway. Employers who make bad employment decisions will be less competitive and will tend to lose business to employers who make better decisions. If, however, the government has the authority to dictate an employer's hiring policies, as it does now, courtesy of employment discrimination law, it will tend to make decisions that result in the less competent employees being hired, because it does not have the same knowledge or incentives that the employer has, in which case, it is the government rather than private employers who are more likely to practice employment discrimination. Far from preventing or reducing employment discrimination, anti-discrimination laws can be expected to make it worse and thereby to reduce overall productivity in the economy -- lowering everyone's standard of living in the process.


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Post 2

Monday, March 28, 2011 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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From the article:

Dukes, claims Walmart systematically discriminated against female employees, who were underrepresented in management positions and were paid less than male colleagues.


Oh right, there can't be any other explanation, it couldn't possibly be because women tend to leave the workplace more often than men do due to pregnancies and other medical conditions. Nope, can't be that. Can't be that men tend to call out sick at a lower frequency than woman do. Nope. Nevermind women leave to start families. Nope. Must be Wal-Mart, that has positioned itself as the best discount retailer in American history that has provided products at cheaper prices than ever before, is somehow burdening itself with less competent overpaid male employees. Yup, makes sense.

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Post 3

Monday, March 28, 2011 - 1:12pmSanction this postReply
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My uncle, many years ago, along with 9 others started a savings and loan. They made some smart moves. They had no expensive headquarters or downtown office - instead there were only small branch offices. They didn't keep any mortgages they made, but instead only made those that they could immediately sell on the open market and they retained the servicing and points for origination. They partnered with a few large, local developers, invested profits in developing shopping centers instead of tying money up in 30 year mortgages, thus making much higher returns and over a shorter period.

AND they hired only women managers because they got better managers for the dollar. Gender discrimination, if it exists, is self-correcting in a free market.
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Bill, good points! But the real intent of collectivists in this context is to define classes that can be pitted against one another in a 'righteous' political battle for the purpose of advancing government control, diminishing individualism and killing capitalism.

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 3/28, 1:43pm)


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Post 4

Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
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Apparently, the justices on the Supreme Court don't think that this class-action lawsuit has any merit. In order for a class-action discrimination lawsuit to be viable, there has to be at least some "smoking gun" evidence that there was a top-down policy of discrimination at the executive level, and there doesn't appear to be sufficient evidence to sustain that conclusion. Therefore, the only lawsuits likely to be considered are individual lawsuits by particular plaintiffs.

The Supreme Court decision won't be handed down until June 2nd.


Post 5

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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I'm sorry, but the plaintiffs, at least the ones they actually allowed on camera, all look, and sound, a little slow to me. In my opinion, they should be glad Walmart would employ them at any level.

What a joke.


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Post 6

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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I'm bothered by the very idea of a class-action suit... on many levels. It is wrong and destructive to the law to separate the individuals who were individually damaged and to make them into this artificial class. It also turns the client-attorney relationship on its head - the attorney no longer reports to the client but becomes autonomous (that's a scary thought!). And it destroys the commonsense idea that the lawyer should never make more than the client, or that the client should be involved personally in pursuing their case. It is also just plain dumb to sue when the return to the individual client will be a tiny amount (a few dollars). And without the connection between the injured party and the attorney, the attorney can collude with the defendant they have snared with the suit and let the defendant settle when it might only be in the interest of the defendant and the attorneys. Class action suits are too often a scam or just a mess.

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Post 7

Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - 11:33pmSanction this postReply
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Some good observations, Steve. Plus, how can the Walmart attorneys defend their client, if they cannot cross examine individual plaintiffs in order to assess the merits of the allegations?


Post 8

Friday, April 1, 2011 - 11:14pmSanction this postReply
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I think Justices doubt Wal-Mart discrimination suit warrants class action. Anyone with a pulse can perform the tasks required. They should certainly be allowed to file a class action and have their arguments heard.

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Post 9

Saturday, April 2, 2011 - 12:23amSanction this postReply
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Hi Sarah,

Welcome to ROR.
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Access to the civil court to address what one thinks is a wrong - and to seek a remedy is one of the valuable features of our legal system, but do you think that class action suits, as such, serve justice more than they diminish it?

Like Bill pointed out, how do the defense attorneys examine the claimants? If the case goes against Walmart they will end up paying people they never even got a chance to get testimony from. How can it be just to have to pay someone that might not have been wronged? Woman A denied a promotion because manager A violated employment regulations, but what about woman B who was denied a promotion by manager B because she was incompetent? Class action lumps them all into the same class. If you are female, and worked at Walmart you get to put in a claim and collect.
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There are other improvements that could be made to our civil courts. I wish we had the "loser pays" format that most countries use. Then anyone could take any alleged wrong to court, no matter how silly, but have to pay all costs if they lose. (Like the old Spanish proverb, "Take whatever you want, God said, then pay for it."
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The other question that comes to mind is about the issue of discrimination and whether or not private organizations have the right to hire who they want - even if they are making an irrational discrimination. The right to be idiots and bigots as long as it doesn't include the initiation of force against another, threaten to do so, or steal from them.

Post 10

Saturday, April 2, 2011 - 12:25amSanction this postReply
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Welcome to the forum, Sarah.

You commented:
They should certainly be allowed to file a class action and have their arguments heard.


But from your linked news article:
The Supreme Court heard arguments from both sides in the largest workplace discrimination lawsuit ever filed.

Now, it sounds like their arguments have been, at least in part, heard by the Court. Are you saying that no matter how logical or jurisprudent the complaint, that they should be allowed to file class action anyway?

In post 6, Steve brought up some really good points warranting extra care with class action lawsuits. I agree with that and think that class actions ought to require hearings instead of going straight into "filings" (like individual lawsuits).

Do you disagree?

Edit note: This post crossed with Steve's.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/02, 12:26am)


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Post 11

Saturday, April 2, 2011 - 5:02amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,


Welcome. Not sure what your background is on this subject. What is your experience with Objectivism? My position (and the Objectivist position AFAIK) is:

Discrimination based on sex, race, age, etc can be despicable and foolish, but it is not an initiation of force, and hence should not be a crime. Government should not be involved in discrimination. The free market solution to foolish discrimination is to boycott.

That this case even made it to the supreme court is scary. A capitalist minded person makes different decisions than a socialist person in employment and wage choices. See labor vs marginal theory of value. Profitable business requires managers maximize employee's opportunity to create value in business, and pay employee equal to the value employee creates. Capitalists have valid idea of what value an employee creates. Socialists have an invalid idea of what value an employee creates.

The defendants in this case are socialists. They must be, in order to bring such a case to court. For the government to require businesses put socialists in management positions... it would be a forceful requirement to massively poorly allocate resources via the invalid labor theory of value. That's not good for productive people, they will be paid less than the value they create, which I think is quite terrible.

We are basically talking whether the US will become a significantly more socialist country. Requiring that businesses have socialists in management positions, requiring that businesses have socialists make decisions about who is hired and who gets paid what... its kind of a distributed socialist system (instead of the historically common centrally planning socialist system).


Cheers,
Dean
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 4/02, 8:11am)


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Post 12

Saturday, April 2, 2011 - 7:14amSanction this postReply
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"Anyone with a pulse can perform the tasks required."

Any reasonably smart person would think that but once you've experienced working as a manager with the task of hiring people from the general public, you quickly realize there are plenty of people with a pulse that cannot perform the tasks required.



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Post 13

Saturday, April 2, 2011 - 7:51amSanction this postReply
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Hi, Sarah,

I can't for a minute, or even a second, think that being a candidate for a management position, which requires one to manage not just herself, but a team of coworkers and/or specialized tasks, only supposes one should have a pulse. There's just no way Walmart gained this much success with morons running things in the field.

 



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Post 14

Saturday, April 2, 2011 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
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This reminds me of T.J.Rodgers' classic response to a Cypress Semiconductor shareholder, a nun who "suggested" him to increase racial and gender diversity on the Board of Directors.





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