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Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 9:24pmSanction this postReply
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John,

It's great to see an arrogant talk-show host being put in his place like that!

Ed


Post 1

Monday, May 16, 2011 - 1:02amSanction this postReply
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has anybody noted that the near-universal condemnation of racism is mostly done from an altruist ethics (i.e. its effects on others.)?

The idea that it is either property rights or racial equality is precisely the argument of the egalitarians on the basis of their altruist rejection of racism. Would you agree?

people seem to reject racism out of emotions and not logic and it can be really difficult to discuss this issue with some because of all the artificial veils they place.
(Edited by Michael Philip on 5/16, 1:06am)


Post 2

Monday, May 16, 2011 - 3:09pmSanction this postReply
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One of my favorite arguments was used.

"I'm for private property rights. Therefore, I think that if a man wishes to exclude others from use of HIS property, even by use of arbitrary standards (racism), he can do so without legal repercussions. Therefore, I am supportive of racism."

This seems to the be the most common argument used against complete private property rights (people can do whatever they wish with their property as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others).

When the right to private property comes into conflict with the "right to eat at a restaurant or shop at a certain store," who delivers the final verdict? By what means is it decided who is right?

The answers should be obvious to anyone who has been paying attention to day-to-day issues.

Post 3

Monday, May 16, 2011 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
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I'm glad to see Ron Paul sticking up for himself. I remember four years ago he let the reporters and the other candidates walk over him.

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Post 4

Monday, May 16, 2011 - 5:38pmSanction this postReply
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I think the problem people have is that they cannot differentiate between the immoral and the illegal. all violations of rights are immoral but not all immoral actions are violations of rights.

Post 5

Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 11:49pmSanction this postReply
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Free Speech, Freedom of Association & Private Property

Exactly, Michael! To allow a person the freedom to practice racial discrimination does not imply that one sanctions his conduct, any more than to allow him the freedom to express a racist viewpoint implies that one sanctions its content. Moreover, just as someone who opposes racist propaganda has no right under freedom of speech to ban it, so neither does someone who opposes racial discrimination have a right under freedom of association to ban it. One may not interfere with another person's freedom of choice simply because one disagrees with the way that he or she exercises that freedom.

Defenders of the First Amendment often point out that the true test of one's belief in freedom of speech is whether or not one allows freedom for speech that one finds offensive. By the same principle, the true test of one's belief in freedom of association is whether or not one allows freedom for associations that one finds offensive (e.g., those based on discrimination). In fact, he who has no right to freedom of association -- no right to determine whom to associate with -- has no right to refrain from practicing racial discrimination, should the government decide to make such discrimination mandatory. It is just such mandatory discrimination to which the old miscegenation and separate-but-equal laws bear grim testimony, and of which the contemporary statutes on affirmative action and racial quotas are a modern expression.

Observe that whereas the original intent of Title VII was to make racial discrimination illegal in private business, that statute has subsequently been interpreted to authorize affirmative action, making racial discrimination mandatory in private business. And this, despite assurances by proponent's of the statute that no such thing as quotas could ever be inferred from it. Consider, for example, the "famous last words" of Senator Hubert Humphrey when the Civil Rights Bill was being debated in Congress: "Contrary to the allegations of some opponents of this title, there is nothing in it that will give any power to the Commission or to any court to require hiring, firing, or promotion of employees in order to meet a racial 'quota' or to achieve a certain racial balance...." {110 Congressional Record 6549 (1964).}

Even more outrageous is that affirmative action violates explicit disclaimers included in Title VII itself. Section 703 (j) reads as follows: "Nothing contained in this title shall be interpreted to require any employer, employment agency, labor organization, or joint labor-management committee subject to this title to grant preferential treatment to any individual or to any group because of the race, color, religion, sex or national origin of such individual or group on account of any imbalance which may exist with respect to the total number of percentages of persons of any race, color, religion or sex, or national origin employed by any employer . . . ."

If it was not clear before, it should now be obvious that once the government can violate freedom of association in order to prevent discrimination, it can do so in order to mandate discrimination, even to the point of perverting and explicitly transgressing its very own civil rights statutes!

In addition to violating freedom of association, Title VII violates freedom of choice in the use of one's property. If another agent, such as the government, may dictate the use of an individual's property, then that agent is the true owner of the property, and the individual, merely its rightless, dispossessed custodian. The essence of ownership is the right of the owner to control his or her property (consistent with the right of others to control theirs). As the Supreme Court declared in 1917: "Property is more than the mere thing which a person owns. It is elementary that it includes the right to acquire, use, and dispose of it. The Constitution protects these essential attributes of property.... There can be no conception of property aside from its control and use, and upon its use depends its value." {Buchanan v. Warley, 245 U.S. 60, 74 (1917).}

(Edited by William Dwyer on 5/18, 11:55pm)


Post 6

Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 3:29amSanction this postReply
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another thing I noticed with some writers is the tendency to equivocate or maybe equate property with slavery. Take the example below:

“The Rand (Paul or Ayn) philosophy, by putting private property rights at the same level of human rights, equates the status of things with the status of human beings. If property is considered equal to human beings, then it's not a very big leap to considering human beings as property. I believe this country is already familiar with this philosophy, manifested 150 years ago as slavery.”

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Post 7

Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Amazing! Simply amazing. Far from property rights implying that humans can become property, as your quote suggests, it is the DENIAL of property rights that implies it, for there can BE no human rights without property rights. The right to property is the right to use and dispose of that which one has earned or produced.

"If one is not free to use that which one has produced, one does not possess the right of liberty. If one is not free to make the products of one's work serve one's chosen goals, one does not possess the right to the pursuit of happiness. And -- since man is not a ghost who exists in some non-material manner -- if one is not free to keep and to consume the products of one's work, one does not possess the right of life. In a society where men are not free privately to own the material means of production, their position is that of slaves whose lives are at the absolute mercy of their rulers." (Nathaniel Branden, The Objectivist Newsletter, February 1962)

(Edited by William Dwyer on 5/19, 2:33pm)


Post 8

Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 7:14pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Please tell us who it was who said that quote (in post 6).

Ed


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Post 9

Friday, May 20, 2011 - 1:49amSanction this postReply
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It was a quote from a guy in Huffpost. Here is the article in full:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-olmsted/people-and-property_b_584111.html

Post 10

Friday, May 20, 2011 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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"has anybody noted that the near-universal condemnation of racism is mostly done from an altruist ethics (i.e. its effects on others.)?"

Maybe it's because I live in multi-ethnic Hawaii, but the few people who even talk about racism here condemn it because of the effects it had on them or their ancestors. It's personal for them. It's pretty difficult to be racist when you have four or more ethnicities among your ancestors -- you have to be kind of self-hating to pull that off.

The few racists here are mostly non-white, and don't consider themselves racist because they think hating whites isn't really racism.

Post 11

Friday, May 20, 2011 - 12:47pmSanction this postReply
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"I have had my issues with Ron Paul on some of his foreign policy positions"

Paul perhaps sometimes errs on the side of being too peace-loving -- in particular his recent statements criticizing how Bin Laden was killed -- but I'd rather have a president who was a bit too reluctant to get involved in a war, then have a president who gets a Nobel Peace Prize, increases the troops in the two wars he inherited, and starts a third one.

War is the health of the state -- I rather have someone who needs a hell of a lot of provocation to be nudged into feeding that beast.

Post 12

Sunday, May 22, 2011 - 4:43amSanction this postReply
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here is another remark on a ron paul forum:

"He defends property rights, fine, all libertarians do, but if property rights allows a person to discriminate against another person based on skin color, then that property owner will use the POWER of the state to enforce a racist policy."



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Post 13

Sunday, May 22, 2011 - 7:40amSanction this postReply
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From Michael's Huff-Post link:

Exhibit A
In a democracy such as we have, the power is diffused among millions of people. You may call that collectivist, but it's hardly monolithic or dictatorial (unlike, for example,a corporation in which all power flows downward from a politburo-like regime made up of the CEO, CFO and Board of Directors.)
Exhibit B
People are more important than things; oceans are more important than oil.
Exhibit C
People who put property rights on the level of human rights need to spend some time picking cotton or weaving carpets 12 hours a day, in a dark-skinned body, being paid subsistence wages by a warlord or factory owner who screams that he has a right to run his business as he sees fit.
In A, Mark Olmsted evades, obscures, or dissembles by equating business with bureaucracy. He misses, perhaps deliberately, how it is that you can opt out of business relationships, but you cannot (legally and safely) opt out of collectivist bureaucracy. He misses, perhaps deliberately, how much power democratic leaders wield. When over a trillion in stimulus money was printed and handed out to cronies, Mark Olmsted either thinks that:

1) "millions of people" made that decision
or
2) it doesn't hurt U.S. citizens

Which are both false.

In B, on the one hand, Olmsted says people are more important than things, and he is right insofar as that goes. But then he contradicts himself. The ocean is a thing and people benefit from oil even if oceans don't. So he is placing things (the ocean) above people -- the exact opposite of what he had just said in the sentence preceding.

In C, he forgets, perhaps deliberately, that the "dark-skinned" people getting paid "subsistence" wages chose to work there. That's because it made their lives better. If they didn't work in that factory, their lives would have been worse. This is classic Marxism, to look only at only a small part of history (leaving other stuff out) and to draw emotionally-appealing judgments from that. It is intentionally-myopic confirmation bias / selective omission.

Ed

Post 14

Thursday, May 26, 2011 - 1:12amSanction this postReply
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Here is another youtube comment:

"I understand what ur saying. However I disagree with giving bigots and racists more rights. History shows what this country was like when racists had those rights. Most Americans dont want to return to those days.I know that Paul supports dont believe those days will return. However, u must admit that theyre GUESSING! Today, we KNOW how life is when u restrict bigots and racists, PRETTY DAMN GOOD! To repeal the CRA, is to HOPE that life wont get worse. I'll stick with what we KNOW!"

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Thursday, May 26, 2011 - 8:05amSanction this postReply
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"He defends property rights, fine, all libertarians do, but if property rights allows a person to discriminate against another person based on skin color, then that property owner will use the POWER of the state to enforce a racist policy."

Hello! Liberals use the power of the state NOW to enforce a racist policy, namely, racial quotas and racial preferences, a policy which owes its origins to the very Civil Rights Act which was allegedly passed to oppose racism. See my Post #5. Since the 1964 Civil Rights Act abrogated private property rights in order to prevent discrimination, it gave the state a justification for doing so in order to mandate discrimination on behalf of achieving an arbitrary racial balance.

The idea that a principled respect for property rights can justify the ENFORCEMENT of a racist policy -- i.e., can justify VIOLATING property rights -- is a preposterous contradiction in terms! Just the opposite is true: It was the Jim Crow laws, which violated property rights, that were largely responsible for racial discrimination in the old South.

Consider what would actually happen if racial discrimination were legal on private property. Suppose that Safeway Stores declared that, in accordance with their right to discriminate on private property, they would no longer serve blacks. What would happen? If they were stupid enough to do this, Safeway stores would suffer a tremendous loss of business, and their competitors would be the beneficiaries. Lucky's supermarkets would be quick to seize this opportunity for profit and would go out of their way to attract black shoppers. They would open up new stores to fill the void created by the failure of Safeway Stores to remain in business.

The Jim Crow laws were necessary, because otherwise self-interested businesses would have catered to black customers and treated them the same as whites. In the absence of these laws, racial discrimination would have been eroded by the operation of the profit motive. Since Southern racists recognized this, they made it illegal to serve blacks and white on an equal basis. The one good thing that the 1964 Civil Rights Act did accomplish was to repeal those laws and allow businesses to profit off the patronage of black consumers. The private discrimination that did exist at the time would then gradually have been eliminated. Titles II and VII would not have been necessary. Nor would we have the toxic effects of racial quotes and racial preferences that exist today.


Post 16

Thursday, May 26, 2011 - 8:50amSanction this postReply
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You are of course right Bill, and you make an astute observation. While the Civil Rights act had the initial corollary effect of removing an impediment to free trade (Jim Crow laws) since that was not the primary motive (freedom) it paved the way for introducing impediments to free trade (racial quotas and preferences).

Post 17

Thursday, May 26, 2011 - 3:35pmSanction this postReply
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Thomas Sowell said it was the race riots and Civil Rights Act of the 1960's which made blacks worse off in this country -- an unintended consequence which is the exact opposite of the original intent!

Sowell said blacks were doing great in the decades preceding the 1960's, in some cases making more money than whites in their neighborhoods. Most black families had a father in the home back then. Now, 7 of 10 black families don't. That is a terrible cultural shift, and it started in the 1960's.

Ed


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