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Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 11:37pmSanction this postReply
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I have tried to organize this convoluted collection of thoughts as best I can, I thank anyone for taking the time to read it and respond. I am trying to sort this out mostly for myself, to help me figure out where I want to take this pile of Objectivism I have amassed in my mind over the past 9 months.
~EJTower

I was wondering if someone could please help me out here. Now for sometime I have been relatively upset with the way that philosophers go about doing their work. This goes for political 'scientists' as well. To be clear, I would have to say that I have only been studying philosophy privately for about 9 months now. I have also only really read Rand, Adam Smith and some Locke. So I am not a well-read philosophy scholar.

In fact I am merely a businessman to be looking for some sort of clear answer. Which I believe I have found in Rands ideas, I like them, that’s why I am here. However, my problem is that it seems that philosophers in general spend too much time going back to ideas that they have already been over a hundred years prior to ensure that they are still wrong or to see if perhaps re-defining a word or two will make things better. It all seems rather ineffectual and redundant.

I don't think philosophers fully embrace the true nature of their jobs and the effects their ideas have on society. Though it is certainly the job of the individual to assess and evaluate a philosophy before they undertake its practice. I wonder and worry because most people haven’t a clue about whose philosophy they believe or to what philosophies their actions can be accredited. I wonder and worry at the enormous vocabulary I have had to learn to even sit through two meetings of a philosophy club. Do philosophers really think that everyone from trucker to trump can understand them? More importantly do they care if they do? If they don’t care if people understand them, then why bother working at it at all?

All this re-defining and fine-tuning of the ideas of Objectivism and Libertarianism seems to be a waste of time. Rather than making progress in its application to reality and winning men’s minds through some action they sit about discussing the minutiae of their theory of esthetics. I guess my question is…why worry about the theories of esthetics when even the basic concepts of the law of identity is not grasped by most folks?

Rand found a venue to deliver her philosophy to us in her fiction. Genius work. She seemed to understand something very important that I believe the majority of the libertarians do not understand. Philosophy needs to be grounded, not dumbed down but grounded in reality and shown to work practically outside of the ivory towers of academia; otherwise philosophy is a pointless pile of ideas to be collected in the libraries and studied only by the initiated. In order to be shown to work in reality Objectivism would require a more public existence, a publicly seen and spotted leadership. Trendsetters I guess you might call them to show people its possible, answer questions and become known. Since the death of Rand, the nationally known leadership of Objectivism has disappeared. People knew who Ayn Rand was but there has been no truly known leadership in this philosophy since. No adoptions of the ideas by well know figures, no pressing groundswells of Objectivists on college campuses. We seem to hide amongst ourselves working out the bits and pieces that we don’t agree on.


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Friday, March 19, 2004 - 5:26amSanction this postReply
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I think the answer is only:

1. Be guided by the philosophy in everything you say and do.

2. Be guided by Rand's essay "What Can One Do?"

There is really nothing else.


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Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 2:31amSanction this postReply
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Eric,

I don't have all the answers for you (well, I might, but it's 2:30 in the morning), but there's one thing to keep in mind.  This forum, and those like it, can only perform certain functions.  One main one is that people new to Objectivism can work out the philosophy through conversations or debates.  For some it might be refining arguments, or educating others.  For others, it's practicing conveying the ideas, and refining their skills of persuasion.  So there is some point to these forums.  You're right that they're not enough, but don't be too quick to dismiss their value. 

Someone once suggested that we should just get out and start telling people about the ideas.  Sounds great, but when does a person start?  Quite a few people have told stories about how excited they were about Objectivism when they first started, and how they tried to share it with others.  They did such a lousy job, either they ended relationships with them, or permanently turned the friends off from Objectivism (or both).  So it's valuable to have a place to go to share the ideas, discuss them, figure out how to formulate answers, and especially to learn.  That's one of the reasons for the existence of SoloHQ and ImportanceOfPhilosophy.com.  And given the feedback over the years, it's been a benefit.


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Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

It wasn't my intention to undermine the site.  I understand the need for this site, I mean without it I would not be able to even talk about what we are talking about.  I try not to undermine the grounds I am standing on. 

I see that there are a few statements in there that would seem to be undermining this site.  Sorry, the intent of this bit of text is very unfocused. 

Its mostly I guess I am wondering how do we use this place to get us to the next step?  What is the next step?  Is it talking to folks?  or is there some thing else that might work better? I note your comment on people ending relationships.

In the past nine months I have been talking with lots of people around me in the physical world.  I have had some general sucsess in getting them to read Rand.  Particularly with the business leaders I know.  Getting high school kids in on it is the hardest I think.

What are you doing outside of this site, Joe?  I am interested to trade stories.

Eric.


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Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 3:20pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Eric,

I didn't think you were knocking the site.  Believe me!  We've had people knock the site!  For weeks and weeks, screaming about how horrible it is!

Now, you say you've had luck exposing people to the ideas of Rands.  I've had some luck with that myself.  And the world is a better off.  But how many of them have picked it up like you?  How many study the literature, visit the web pages, and then try to spread it?  I imagine not many.  So people like you are worth quite a bit more than the others as far as changing the world.  If you've exposed say 10 people to the ideas, and say all reacted positively, then whoever exposed you to the ideas hit a gold mine.

One of SOLO's first goals is to create the infrastructure to support people like you.  You can read Rand's writings, but there's nothing like conversing with like-minded people.  You get more effective at it, and you don't feel quite so alone in doing it.  And I personally believe there's still a lot of work to do in this area.

What's the next step?  There's lots of them.  Creating a friendly, fun Objectivist culture that can attract people.  More books would be nice.  More local clubs where people can meet others.  Better explanations of the current ideas, popularizing them for general use.  Refining current positions so they stand up to critical analysis.  Exploring new ideas, ones that will be more useful in conveying the philosophy, or understanding the world.  More support for those people who are willing to put the time and effort into all of this.  Creating the means to have a better division of labor between Objectivists.  Pulling like-minded groups (like libertarians) closer towards our own camp.  More informational websites like ImportanceOfPhilosophy.com (we get tons of random google hits, which means tons of people being at least exposed to the ideas).  The list is long.

Outside of this site?  Tough question right now, since I just spend the longest time doing this upgrade, and I'm still adding features and cleaning it up.  SOLO is about to create some new sub-groups, aimed more closely at particular markets.  You'll see announcements soon.  We'll have more products.  More conferences.  More services we provide to other Objectivists.  I've got my fingers in a lot of these.

And I intend to do some writing of my own.  No promises yet, since there's always distractions.

Now, what kind of ideas do you have?  How would you like to get more involved with SOLO?


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Post 5

Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 8:53pmSanction this postReply
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~~My Story~~

 

            How I got interested in Rand is in fact an amusing story to some degree.  I will give you the short of it.  I was born on the east side of Buffalo, NY.  Both of my parents are apolitical but for some odd reason around the time I turned ten I caught an interest in politics.  Newspapers, the news, audio books from the library by Rush Limbaugh, and conversations with older people about politics soon became something that took up a good amount of my young mind.  These things do not make you popular as a child in school but for some reason it made me feel important to understand what was going on in the world outside of my neighborhood.

            Life progressed as normal until the turn of years brought me to ninth grade and then of course for all adolescents life takes on new obstacles.  But the largest change in my life beyond physiology (in that year I grew six inches) was a new English teacher in our school.  A liberal by definition; he had shown up to free the minds of oppressed high school children of which I was one apparently.  This is where things become ironic in many ways.  I had this teacher for one class or another for all four years in high school.  He taught alternative literature, diversity issues, and finally media literacy.  Throughout all these course he made it plainly clear to us that we should at all times question the status quo.  Question authority where it stands and work towards what we believe in.  Be prepared to discard that which is irrelevant and seek the facts.

            Leaving high school my mind overflowed with liberal ideologies, I would be an English teacher too I thought to myself, perhaps a union leader? In time I landed amongst the socialist crowds in college in the western end of Massachusetts.  (This is where they put all the hippy artists after the sixties).  While amongst these collectivists I protested here and there, all against everything that collectivists protest against.  I debated regularly, organized people, and believed that some day I too would have a chance to save the world, I knew I was right...or did I?  Those words that my liberal teacher from high school said still rung hard in my ears and being as I was surrounded by and lived with the collectivists, Maoists, socialists, liberals I applied those words to the things I had been saying and believing.  As the christians would say of god judging sinners, I found myself wanting.

At this time there was a realization that English particularly writing was something that I could undertake in my free time.  I realized also that in the area of English and perhaps in other areas there are two types of people.  Those who write books and those who write books about people that write books.  There are authors and then there are biographers.  This idea brooded within me until I realized that what I really wanted in this life was to first reach what I believed in and second work diligently to bring this world into existence.  So that year I changed my major to Business Finance.  It occurred to me that revolutions cost money, and that I never wanted to be poor again, I had done that at the start of my life on the east side of Buffalo.

            Over the next year I quickly followed every hole I saw in the collectivists ideology, looking always for other contradictions.  Always in search of the truth as I was sure I would come upon eventually.  I explored everything Marx to Zoroaster to Daniel Quinn.  Looking for the answers.  All the while drawing ever further from my socialist friends, each day our arguments got even more heated, each day I won more arguments by pointing out obvious contradictions in their statements.  Until one day a neo-socialist joined to our group of informal debates.  In our first argument he became livid in a fury of anger at my heretical statement that not all companies were bad.  “You should read Atlas Shrugged you Capitalist pig!” he screamed.  I was of course insulted at the time, crazy as it seems now, I still didn’t believe fully my own arguments.  To me, I was playing devils advocate.

            It wasn’t until last June that I decided to myself that I was a capitalist and went to find out what that really meant.  I had the fine opportunity to meet a man, who was a vice-president of International Molding Steel Inc.  He was also born in Buffalo and had worked in the steel mills when he was my age.  Worked his way out of Buffalo out and straight up to where he currently resides.  I was very impressed by him; he spoke with such hope for his future and with such passion against the ideologies of the left.  As I found out later: he was pleased with my ability to keep up with him intellectually so after spending a weekend at his families cottage he told me I should read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.  Again I logged the title of the book in my book and went on with life.

            It wasn’t until I was in another heated debate that I finally got the third recommendation to read the book, the one that set me over the edge.  One of my friends was talking about how he hated Atlas Shrugged.  He commented on how it made him sick so he stopped reading it half way through.  How he hated that it made the rich people out to be heroes, and how they were actually just lucky people and that all people who make it in the world do so because of luck.  This sent me off the edge, I nearly screamed at him.  I worked hard to get where I was in college and I would hear nothing of it.  He told me that if I didn’t believe him, that I should read Atlas Shrugged and see for myself if I thought otherwise.

            So I did, I set out to investigate this pro-capitalist book and come back with evidence enough to verbally plow my friend back into the ground.  I can be rather like a zealot when I put my mind to finding something out.  Starting with Atlas Shrugged, I read every single book by Rand I could place my hand on.  The only fiction I read was Atlas but every small book on her philosophy I picked up and read cover to cover.  Then I returned to my friend to duel it out.  I won.

            So it is, Joe, that the majority of the people who recommended I read the works of Ayn Rand did so in an attempt to belittle me.  Perhaps they found a gold mine as you say but I think in this case, their attempt to close the gold mine down, resulted in the discovery of more gold.

 

 


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Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 9:15pmSanction this postReply
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~~My Ideas~~

 

To this point, my attempts to get people to read rand have not resulted in anyone quite willing to spread the word as of yet.  A few people that I have been talking with I am bringing the ideas to them slowly as not to get them to have what I have started to call the allergic reaction to Ayn Rand.  You say Ayn Rand says this and then suddenly they shut off and stop listening completely.  So I have instituted my baby steps approach.  Get them to agree that A is A, and that the ends don’t justify the means.  Talk to them about issues and present the objectivist view without telling them.  Then when they seem willing to accept the ideas, give them a book to read.  It is working with a few people.

 

Currently I am working out a plot structure for a Science Fiction story in between school and work.  I hope to make use of the Objectivist view through this work and have a fun time of it as well.  I find that Atlas Shrugged has become a bit outdated and even boring to some readers.  I hope to solve this, maybe…

 

            I am mostly working to get all the ideas strait in my own mind so that I can better make use of them in argument.  As well as in polite conversations with people.  Once I have things straight I will be able to organize more appropriately I think.

 

            An idea that has come to me in recent weeks thanks to some posts here is the creation of a pop-culture image for Objectivism.  I am fairly unsure what this will entail but I have recently heard of a kid in high school who has opened his own custom clothing place.  I am having some of my friends get in contact with this kid.  This may be a step towards objectivist fashion, we will see. 

 

            I also hope to talk a musician friend of mine into writing music.  He likes the objectivist ideas but he needs some further encouragement before he can set out on putting pieces together.  He isn’t sure what objectivist music sounds like, and frankly neither am I.  But I will hopefully have some ideas figured out before May when he comes to town.

 

            My major problem is focus right now; I lack the ability to settle on one direction.  I am unsure where I want to take this all.  I would like to make these ideas popular.  I think I can do that.  But I think I need more organization perhaps I am undertaking too much at once as well.  Damn my zealot mind.

 

            I realized, Joe, after I asked what it is that you do outside of this site that in reality these sites are what you do.  These sites are your focus currently.  I overlooked that.  Fine job your doing too.  That goes for all the Admins here.

 
~Eric.


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