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Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 8:00amSanction this postReply
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Greetings!

I'm new SOLO and decided to finally post something after surfing the site for a while.

A bit about me: I've been a libertarian for nearly four years. I did not come to libertarianism via the Ayn Rand route. To be honest, I've not read one word of her writings yet. As I've read about her, she seems to be a mixed bag. I.e., a brilliant woman and writer. A fierce individualist and ground-breaking philosopher. But from articles I've read about her, she is depicted as somewhat ecentric and bristiling with contradictions as well.

I would like to read some of her writings for myself to get some sort of perspective on Objectivism. Question -- what would this group recommend I read and in what order? Also, what other authors and Objectivist works would you recommend?

Another factoid about me is that I am a committed Christian. It appears that Objectivism is atheistic in principle. Is this assumption correct? While I have found absolutely nothing in libertarian thought incompatitble with my Christian theistic beliefs to this point (on the contrary, "non-agression" is very compatible with my faith), I am wondering how compatible Objectivism would be with Christianity/theism. Thoughts?

Finally, while not a philospher, in my theological studies (at the undergrad and graduate level) and reading on my own, I have become familiar with the broad outlines of philosophical history. However there are gaps in my cursory knowledge of the subject. What would you suggest as a "primer" for someone investigating Objectivist Philosophy and how it relates to philosophy in general?

Thanks for your time and comments.

Yours for liberty,
B. Keith Brumley


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Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 11:30amSanction this postReply
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Keith, without a doubt, you should read 'Atlas Shrugged'. No more need be said.

Sam


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Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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I am sure you have noticed that Objectivists are atheists.  Objectivism is atheistic not because it is anti-religion but because it is pro-reason.  Ayn Rand did have respect for religion as man trying to understand the world around him and his place within it.  She went as far as to say that there are some concepts from religion that she liked, like the concept of absolute truth, and absolute good and evil.  "The Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugged" are the only two books you should ever have to read, although she has written a number of non-fiction articles and essays.  I myself used to be a Christian before I read Ayn Rand. 

Please don't let the atheism scare you.  Please read these novels with an open mind but a grain of salt.  Agree or disagree with the ideas in them, I promise you will at least more about different ways of thinking.  They may lead you to question your beliefs, or further reinforce them, but either way you have nothing to lose and possibly everything to gain.


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Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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Well said Byron!

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 12:34pmSanction this postReply
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Byron,that was very well put! I was trying to think of a way to describe Rand's attitude to religion that is not offensive to a christian. If you are interested in philosophical ideas there is a good chance you will be influenced by christian ideas,it is after all our "default" outlook in U.K and U.S. 
                                                                      I have many friends who would call themselves christian and most can cope with discussions involving atheism as long as the tone is kept respectful.My experience is that once one a person shows contempt then the discussion is over,ego's are bruised and friendship threatened.


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Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
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I have many friends who would call themselves christian and most can cope with discussions involving atheism as long as the tone is kept respectful. My experience is that once a person shows contempt then the discussion is over, ego's are bruised and friendship threatened.
Speaking of very well said, that was as well David.

George


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Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the recommendation. Went to "Half-Priced Books" today and could only find "The Fountainhead." I'll start with that until I can find "Atlas Shrugged."

BKB


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Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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Bryon,

Thanks for your encouraging and "tactful" (ha) advice.

I am certainly a person with an open mind. Jesus said "The truth shall set you free." Therefore, truth has no fear of investigation. And you are correct to say that reading Rand's novels and other works should be done with a grain of salt. I'm sure there will be some things with which I agree wholeheartedly, whlie other things I will not. And, as you say, by questioning my beliefs (which I continually do) I will either confirm them more firmly or come to new truth. Either way, I'm the richer for it.

BKB


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Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 2:29pmSanction this postReply
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David,

I agree that when we show disrespect for another's deeply held beliefs the discussion is over very quickly. Unfortunately, Christians are just as guilty (if not more so at times) of doing this with non-theists.

I appreciate the "tone" I've found at SOLO so far. It is a welcome surprise.

BKB


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Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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Ayn Rand's books usually can also be found in public libraries.
(Edited by Hong Zhang on 12/09, 2:32pm)


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Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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BKB,

You're very welcome.  Tact is merely a way of getting your point across by putting it in terms that the other could and would understand and appreciate.  I prefer the precision of a scalpel to the brute force of a slegehammer.  Being a former Christian myself, and having many Christian friends, I do have a soft spot for Christianity at it's best.  I think the Victor Hugo novel and musical "Les Miserables" (a favorite of Ayn Rand's) is a good example of the goodness and benevolence that is possible in any man.

Bear in mind that "The Fountainhead" is more of a prelude to "Atlas Shrugged".  "Atlas Shrugged" is the more definitive presentation of the Objectivist philosophy, especially John Galt's speech in the third act.  Please keep that in mind when you're reading it.

Take care and God Bless. ;-)


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Friday, December 10, 2004 - 6:55amSanction this postReply
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It's probably too late to add my own suggestion, but in the off chance that it's not...

Here's my recommendation.

I know that many students of Objectivism recommend Atlas Shrugged first, but because it is heavy-handed, it might put you off altogether, and so I would encourage you to save that until later.

1. If you want an illustration of the philosophy, I recommend Rand's The Fountainhead first. It is the best literary work for this purpose. It lacks the Nietzchean aspects and quirky style of Anthem, the pessimism and historical emphasis of We the Living, and the heavy-handedness of Atlas Shrugged.

2. If you want an explanation and analysis of the philosophy, I recommend Sciabarra's Ayn Rand: The Russian Radical. Even if you disagree with Sciabarra's approach, you'll find that he's done his homework and that he includes in his book the views of many (if not all) the major students of Objectivism. Other scholarly works on Objectivism are not as exhaustive as his.

3. Depending on how much time you want to spend on understanding this philosophy, I'd encourage you to read Rand's nonfiction, which stand as the seminal philosophical works that have influenced (or some would say constituted or established) Objectivism: The Virtue of Selfishness, Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, and The Romantic Manifesto (in that order).

However, these works can be hard to appreciate on their own. You might have to read the other books to appreciate any one of them, as I think Rand intended her philosophy to be viewed as an integrated whole.

This why I would encourage you to read Sciabarra's book before Rand's seminal nonfiction. He attempts to show that integration throughout.

Jordan


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Friday, December 10, 2004 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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You might want to try ANTHEM first before FOUNTAINHEAD or ATLAS. It makes a good introduction because it IS shorter, and contains the basic theme of the other two. If you aren't turned off by the basic message of ANTHEM, then you progress to the other two.
Some think the book is a little weird, or strident, but I think the less distinct setting and time period allow the beginner focus more on the principle without getting too caught up in the particulars of the story. And the loss of the word "I" in the story was, to me, more effective than the hundreds of pages Rand uses to get her message across at making one understand the importance of rational selfishness, in a way that the reader experiences personally. ATLAS and FOUNTAINHEAD flesh out the philosophy, but after ANTHEM, everything else is footnotes. ;)

Just my opinion. :)
(Edited by Joe Maurone on 12/10, 9:31am)


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Friday, December 10, 2004 - 6:45amSanction this postReply
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Bryon,

We agree on the scapel vs. the sledgehammer approach (ha).

I've read the first five chapters of "The Fountainhead." Interesting character development so far (Peter Keating juxtaposed next to Roark). Not sure what to make of Roark's self-confidence bordering on arrogance. Is Rand holding this alienating posture up as the ideal?

At the same time (being a contrarian myself), I empathize with Roark's pursuit of excellence for the sake of excellence, and not simply to "go along to get along."

Enough of the book review. I look forward to reading this and then "Atlas Shrugged." So far, I see nothing so earth-shattering as to question my belief in God (ha). But I do enjoy a good read!

And, blessings to you as well, my friend.


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Friday, December 10, 2004 - 7:04amSanction this postReply
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Jordon,

Thank you, and it's not too late!

I've started "The Fountainhead" and have purchased "For the New Intellectual" and "Why Philosophy" (or a similar title). Interestingly, you mention neither of these titles.

I think I'll read "The Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugged" first and then move onto to others selectively. I had not heard of Sciabarra's work. Sounds very interesting. Is his a critical approach to Rand's philosophy? I think I would appreciate something like that vs. someone who is already "sold" on Objectivism.

Thanks again,
BKB


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Friday, December 10, 2004 - 12:11pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks Joe,

Looks like I may have to put "Anthem" on my reading list as well. I saw a used copy for pretty cheap. Can't hurt to give it a look.

Thanks again - BKB


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Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 8:26amSanction this postReply
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Hi BKB,

 

First, you can get Anthem for free online: http://www.bookrags.com/books/anthm/.

 

Second, For the New Intellectual was the first book that I read of Rand's. It's mostly a bunch of excerpts from her fiction, but she began the book with some original nonfiction. It left me feeling intrigues but incomplete.

 

Philosophy: Who Needs It was released posthumously. Most of the essays focus on derivative issues, and Rand's tone is harsh.

 

Sciaberra's book seems more from the position of a sympathist than a critic. There're much stronger critics than he. Read him to understand the philosophy. Read others to expose its problems.


Jordan

 


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