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Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 11:46amSanction this postReply
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Are there any fundamental differences between these two institutions? Underlying philosophy aside, it appears that TOC has a more relaxed approach to instituting change and education. While ARI seems to share this goal, they seem more like hardliners in their approach.
(Edited by Donald Talton on 8/11, 5:06pm)


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Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 1:36amSanction this postReply
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Relaxed vs. hard-nosed would be one way of characterizing the differences.  Objectivist guerilla warfare would be another.
 

Basically, ARI is the official Objectivist organization, founded by Leonard Peikoff, Rand’s supposed “intellectual heir.”

 

TOC was started in 1990 by David Kelley shortly after Peikoff made him persona non grata for writing a paper entitled “A Question of Sanction,” which defended Kelley’s decision to speak to a libertarian group.  The key issue involved was whether or not  the Objectivist ethics is consistent with a policy of intellectual tolerance.  Peikoff’s essay in defense of the excommunication is entitled “Fact and Value.”  Kelley later published a detailed response to Peikoff entitled Truth and Toleration  (subsequently revised under the title of The Contested Legacy of Ayn Rand.)  You can read some of the seminal documents here.

 

This was the second great Objectivist schism.  Peikoff tried to make the case that the underlying philosophical origin was identical to Ayn Rand’s repudiation of Nathaniel Branden in 1968, but no one outside Peikoff’s sphere of influence is likely to agree.

 

The official policy of ARI toward TOC is utter and unqualified contempt.  The unofficial policy of TOC toward ARI is that Peikoff is a misguided authoritarian tyrant whose followers will hopefully see the light some day. 

 

As it stands today, ARI’s intellectual leadership does a good job of publishing books and articles which clearly articulate the application of Objectivist principles, but manage to make the movement look like a lunatic fringe by impugning the honesty of anyone who expresses significant disagreement.  TOC’s leadership demonstrates a grasp of the proper approach to spreading a new philosophy—i.e., they encourage debate on the assumption that you cannot shame people into agreement and the more rational position will win out—but they often display a disturbingly cavalier attitude toward philosophical consistency and fundamental principles in their published offerings.  (See the thread “TOC Watch” in the General Forum section.)

 

Hope this answers your question, without pouring cold water on your enthusiasm for the ideas.  It is, after all, the ideas that really matter here.  Alas, Objectivism’s superior alliance with reality has not spared it from the same bitter infighting that has characterized all major philosophical movements throughout human history. 

 

  



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Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 4:31amSanction this postReply
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Donald,

Underlying philosophy aside??? Seriously, what other criteria should we use? The exact conflict between TOC and ARI is a conflict between TOC, which believes that ARI subverts independence and intellectual method, and ARI, which believes TOC subverts objectivity by tolerating odious opinions and blurring the distinctions of Objectivist thought.

Those differences have practical consequences such as what you mention. I think it would be irresponsible to declare an alliance with either organization until you've worked out the issues in sufficient detail. I think very few Objectivists have thought through these issues in enough depth to form a settled conclusion.

Jim 

(Edited by James Heaps-Nelson on 8/13, 4:47am)

(Edited by James Heaps-Nelson on 8/13, 4:48am)


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Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 5:10amSanction this postReply
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I should say that not coming to a conclusion on TOC/ARI (or SOLO) should not stop you from being an enthusiastic admirer and supporter of Ayn Rand's ideas compared with the alternatives :-).

Jim


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Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 12:55pmSanction this postReply
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Donald,

 

In case you were wondering if I exaggerate when I say that fans of ARI like to attack those who ask perfectly legitimate questions, check out Diana Mertz Hsieh’s Noodlefood blog (Five Points for Philosophic Detection, Noodlefood, August 13, 2005).  Hsieh is a recent convert from TOC to ARI.  She offers “five points” (??) to any reader who can tell her what is “so bizarrely wrong” with the question you posed at the beginning of this thread.

 

She awards the points to someone who prattles back the ARI party line that you cannot look for “fundamental differences” apart from “underlying philosophy.”  You have committed the egregious sin of ever suggesting that the difference between ARI and TOC is not fundamentally philosophical.  The “evil” of TOC’s tolerance of opposing viewpoints is their proof that it does not, in fact, represent Objectivism.

 

Welcome to guerilla warfare, Objectivist-style.  Does anyone still wonder why I titled my earlier thread “How to Kill a Philosophy”?

 

I do not mean to say that the differences between ARI and TOC do not have definite philosophical implications, as reflected in the differing position papers of Kelley and Peikoff.  But these differences are not of such a fundamental nature as to challenge either organization’s underlying identification as Objectivist.

 

P.S. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your question.  No matter how much the true believers at ARI want to deny it, TOC and ARI do have the same basic underlying philosophy, but fundamentally different approaches to promoting it.

(Edited by Dennis Hardin on 8/13, 1:39pm)


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Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 6:04pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you all for helping clarify this for me. I had picked up on this between this message board and another. I had posted something somewhat silly on the other board, and was basically assualted with analysis on how I said it, not what it said. I had to post four more messages, basically repeating that. It was a board that was definitely more in line with ARI than not. Talk about frustrating! I know alot of people do go through a "militant" stage when they first get exposed to objectivism, hell I did, but I got over once I realized that it was impractical and frankly pretty annoying to contemplate everything and its relation to objectivism, or place within or without.

ARI does do a good job with proselytizing Rands ideas. I do like that they push to get her books in schools, and offer essay contests for kids. The impression they have left on me though that the only way to reach a true understanding of objectivism is through their extentions of Rands ideas, I almost want to say similar to Catholisism, with Peikoff as Pope. That, and they ask for donations alot, and their newsletter isn't really worth looking at.

My personal belief is from what I have seen of Rand, and read in all of her writings (to my knowledge I have read everything she penned) is that the idea of an "objectivist center/institute" was NOT her ideal vehicle of getting her message across, and that she probably would have objected to the idea. She chose beautiful novels, and with good reason. I think any institution will over time get drunk on its own size and loses sight of the original goals. The one big goal I found in Rands books was that of happiness with reason as the vehicle, and she gave a REALLY easy plan to follow to obtain it.

(Edited by Donald Talton on 8/13, 11:18pm)


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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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I read Barbara Branden's biography of Ayn Rand several years ago and was quit astonished by many of the details of Rand's dealing with other people.  Despit all of her rantings against totalitarians she seems to have been one of the first rank herself.  In her writings she talks all day long about intellectual freedom, but when it came to the wire, it was her way or nothing.  It really put a damper on my enjoyment of her work, which is steadily returning as I realize that what she wrote is still very legitimate in many respects. 
As to Leonard Peikoff, I believe that he is just carrying on Rand's all or nothing "policy" when it comes to Objectivism which he also seems to be the "intellectual heir" of.  Peikoff and his ilk seem to me to be  complete dogmatists in that if a question arises the answer is "What would Rand do?".  Not in a broad sence such as "think", but "think and you had better come to the same conclusion that she would have or you are an irriational collectivist and are hereby banned from calling yourself an Objectivist."  
This split which has its roots at the beginning of the movement is a testament to the philosophic idea of the law of non-contradiction.  Rand was somehow convinced that her affair with Nathanial Branden would not harm anyone despite the fact that he was newly married and she had  been married for some time herself, but she somehow believed that she was the philosopher queen and Branden was Galt incarnate so every one will be happy and understanding etc...   It was played out in no uncertain terms ironically by those who supposedly up held rational thought as an ideal that irrationality will ultimatly bring destruction to those who participate in it. 
I don't want to come off as preaching here but Peikoff and those who are associated with him and share his views on what is "correct dogma"  or whatever they call it and expelling those who don't tow the line should realize what they are doing is propagating what they are supposedly fighting against.


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Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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