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Friday, August 19, 2005 - 11:52pmSanction this postReply
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First off all, for the purposes of this discussion I will assume that "Objectivism" is an "open system" that is subject to correction and open for clarification and expansion but cannot not deviate in any very important way from Rand's own key positions.  My main question is which areas of "Objectivism" still need work? 

 

I am also looking for examples of writings that I may not be aware of that have been successful in expanding the scope of "Objectivism" or have succeeded in plugging up weak spots.   I am specifically looking for responses only from people who consider themselves to be veteran Objectivists.  This is not meant to be a dissent thread.

 

So what needs work?  Epistemology would seem to be the first area of need.  I know that David Kelley wrote The Evidence of the Senses but has anyone else done extensive work in this area?   And where are the continued trouble spots?

 

Binswanger and Smith have written their on different issues pertaining to Objectivist ethics, The Biological Basis for Teleological Concepts and Viable Values -- both of which I have yet to read.    Many of Branden's works expand upon Randian ethics and focus upon personal application.  Machan and some others (whom I have not read) have also done work here.  Ethics seems to be Objectivism's strong point.

 

In Politics we also have a good deal of good work by authors arguing for pure Capitalism -- specifically by those who have taken Austrian Economics and married it to Objectivist ethics and roughly to Objectivst Epistemology.  By far the best example here is George Reisman's Capitalism though there are examples of this approach on a smaller scale by other authors.  There is also the recent Schwartz book on foreign policy that I suspect I will find very serious problems with if I ever get around to reading it based upon summaries that I have read and based upon the ARI's approach to foreign policy and warfare.   

 

Esthetics also seems to be an area that requires expansion.  I've never really looked, has anyone attempted to build upon Rand's ideas here?

 

For a summary of Objectivism Peikoff has done a fairly good job with Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand but I would like to see someone write what amounts to a philosophical treatise that uses a scholarly approach to attempt a more broad and thorough integration (I REALLY wish that Ayn Rand would have done this herself) and which does not presuppose a closed system mentality.   

 

 - Jason 

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 8/20, 4:52am)


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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 3:55amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

Several areas:

1. Defining the proper boundaries, territory and intersection for a correct philosophical theory of knowledge and a correct psychological theory of learning in cognitive science.

2. Reconciling intellectual property and free competition in patents.


3. Developing a scientific description of free will that is consistent with agent causation (emergence etc.).

4. Developing a philosophic view of quantum mechanics that retains causality and is epistemologically solid.

5. Integrating reason and emotion in a way that is harmonious from a cognitive science standpoint.

I'll stop there and let someone else weigh in :-).


Jim


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Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 6:26amSanction this postReply
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 1. How about the esthetics of music. She left that pretty open in the Romantic Manifesto.

2. Also, so far as I know, she never touched on the proper structure of government: Should we have a federal-state set up? How about three seperate branches? Democracy? Republic? I'm rather surprised she didn't discuss this more. But it's wide open.

Jordan

EDIT: wait a minute...she she mention democracy? I have a vague memeory that she did...but in a bad light.

(Edited by Jordan on 8/20, 6:27am)


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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 12:02amSanction this postReply
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I am entering this discussion with some trepidation: since "Objectivism" is an invented label that refers specifically to the personal philosophy of Ayn Rand in the last years of her life, I am opposed to appropriating that label for anything else. I consider myself a Randian, in the sense that I am more influenced by Ayn Rand than by any other philosopher - I agree with almost all of her philosophical positions from the years 1955-1970 - but, for the reason given above, not an "Objectivist."

So, what are the areas of objective philosophy that would benefit from the application of a Randian perspective? My list:

1. Philosophy of Science (applied ontology and epistemology,) especially the study of interactions between mattergy and information.

2. Aesthetics (real objective aesthetics, not just a reverse-engineering of Ayn Rand's personal preferences a la Torres and Kamhi.)

3. Philosophy of Law and of Law Enforcement (interactions of ethics with epistemology) - Ayn Rand did a great deal of work on the foundations of politics, but never explored this specific applied area in any depth.

4. Philosophy of History,of Culture, and of the History of Ideas.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 1:34amSanction this postReply
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Adam -- you certainly fit in with the type of SOLO user I was hoping to attract with this thread. 

I didn't get a full understanding of your full reasoning when reading your previous posts on your disagreements with Rand post 1970.   I would be interested in hearing a more broad explanation of this.  I do find a subtle difference in the "feel" of the post Nathaniel Branden Rand when I read her essays after this period but I don't know that I sense any clear philosophical differences.   There is an expensive CD set of recordings on the ARI site that are 1976 lectures by Leonard Piekoff that also include some question and answer sessions with Rand.  I wonder if these would shed light on this question.

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 8/21, 1:39am)


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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 8:29amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

One area I found lacking, believe it or not, is in human rights. As there are a few undefined topics in her writings on rights, this has allowed people to use her formulation of rights as a basis to arrive at anarchism and other forms that are contradictory to her way of thinking.

I am presently doing a work on rights to hopefully help define this issue a little better and get more heavies involved on ground level formulations.

Michael


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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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Michael, I found that Robert Bidinotto did a nice job of clarifying this issue here :

http://solohq.com/Articles/Bidinotto/Getting_Rights_Right.shtml

This might need to be expanded on a bit but I think this does a fairly good job of plugging up the small hole left by Rand's own writings on this topic in that it does a better job of glueing rights directly to the her overall notion of Objectivist Ethics.

 - Jason


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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

The big issue about which Ayn Rand changed her mind sometime between 1969 and 1973 is the scope of philosophy. See my comments (0, 2, and 4) in a previous thread.

(Edited by Adam Reed
on 8/21, 11:36am)


Post 8

Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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Objectivism really doesn't promote the awareness of "dirty" money much at all.

Objectivism really seems to revolve around the assumption that the mere making of money automatically legitimizes a person. 

And when objectivism does criticize dirty money, it's always the low-level scoundrel or the non-cosmetically genteel who they selectively emphasize... it's almost never the high-ranking corporate corrupt in their crosshairs; they just pretend like it doesn't exist or isn't really that bad.  

There's just too much emphasis on cosmetics, and that should be changed.


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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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Troll Ignored.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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Adam -- I guess I was hoping for a more throrough compare and contrast between these changes in viewpoint by Rand.  I honestly didn't understand the distinction you were trying to present in that thread.

 - Jason


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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 12:23pmSanction this postReply
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Celeste-

Untrue. Francisco D'Anconia deals directly with this issue in his meaning of money speech in Atlas Shrugged.

Jim


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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 12:48pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,

If you look at the thread where Robert's article came from, you will see that I was one of the ones prompting him on this.

He did a wonderful job (which I loudly hailed). There are some severe unresolved definition problems, however. I should finish the article in a week or two, then I will look forward to your comments.

Michael



Edit - The article came from this post by Robert Bidinotto. I had posted here on the same thread a few hours before, strongly criticizing the deification of the Non-Initiation of Force Principle. We were in the heat of battle back then and I believe my arguments helped spark Robert's intrinsic-ethics derivation clarification. Still, like I said, there are some unclear definition problems that need to be addressed. You still can drive a truck through the holes. The comments in the posts to the article show some of the confusion that still remains on a small scale despite Robert's brilliant clarity.
(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 8/21, 1:46pm)


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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 1:45pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,

Pre-1970, Rand considered philosophy to be the integration of all the sciences, so that philosophy was properly grounded in all identified facts of reality available at a given time. Epistemology, for example, integrated ontology with all currently available knowledge of developmental and cognitive psychology.

Post-1970, Rand considered the scope of philosophy to be only the axiomatic foundation of knowledge. Her post-1970 conception of philosophy included only those facts that could have been arrived at by any rational mind at any historical time, without regard for the accumulated results from the special sciences.

I intend to write about this at greater length in the future, time permitting.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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Michael and Adam I look forward with great anticipation to further remarks by both of you on these very important topics. 

 - Jason


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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 5:24pmSanction this postReply
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Jason-
This is a good thread.  I'm glad you got this ball rolling as I've been wanting to hear more about some of these topics as well, especially epistemology and esthetics.  I'm looking forward to keeping up with this one.


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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 5:27pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,

 

Like Adam, I think of Objectivism as a system of ideas that has already become part of the history of philosophy.   Additions or corrections to that system of ideas will not be Objectivist; they will be something-else-ist.  Besides, if coming up with a better theory requires us to deviate from some claim that Rand made, why should we hesitate to deviate?  We ought to be placing allegiance to the facts above allegiance to some thinker or school of thought.

I agree with Adam's list of issues... and, as long as the above caveat is kept in mind, I agree with Jim's as well. Rand herself admitted that she needed, and lacked, a philosophy of science.  She also admitted that she needed, and lacked, a philosophy of law.

 

You mentioned The Evidence of the Senses. Even though Kelley's book develops the hints about perception that Peikoff gave in some of his lectures--with great breadth and depth, working in the ideas of James Gibson--it has fallen down the memory hole as far as the Ayn Rand Institute crowd is concerned.   Yet they have come up with nothing to replace it, let alone surpass it.

A source of trouble, in my opinion, is Rand, Peikoff, Kelley (and Gibson's) insistence that perception must be error-free.  In The Evidence of the Senses, perception is claimed to be error-free.  Anything that looks like a mistake is said to be due to "perceptual judgment."

 

To the list of epistemological issues, I would also add questions about skill, or “implicit knowledge.” Rand talked about skill and emphasized its importance, but kept it out of her formal epistemology, and remained uncomfortable with anything that we human beings might know without knowing that we know it. She never stopped putting scare-quotes around “instinct,” “just knowing,” “stomach feeling” (a phrase that shows up in her journals, as quoted in Valliant's book), and so on.

 

In parallel, to the list of ethical issues I would add questions about prudence or practical wisdom or practical intelligence. Real live moral decision making requires an assessment of the good thing or the right thing or the best thing to do in a particular context. Aristotle considered practical wisdom a virtue.  He insisted on the skilled element, denying that the assessment of contextually appropriate action could be reduced to a cookbook procedure. The other ancient Greek schools also considered practical wisdom to be a virtue. But Rand kept practical wisdom out of the Objectivist ethics.

The Virtue of Prudence, by Doug Den Uyl, is well worth reading on this subject.  It remains completely unknown to most Randians.


The doctrine of the “premoral choice to live” (Peikoff's phrase, but the idea comes straight out of Atlas Shrugged) is a source of trouble for Objectivism because we human beings don't often make a conscious choice to live—and we essentially never make such a choice in advance of all of our moral choices.


Meanwhile, you're of course right that everything that Nathaniel Branden has written about self-esteem is at least indirectly about ethics.

On rights and their relation to the ethical sphere, there is a slew of publications by Tibor Machan, by Eric Mack, and by Doug Den Uyl and Doug Rasmussen. (The Dougs' new book, Norms of Liberty, is due out soon.)

On esthetics, I have a substantially higher opinion of Michelle Kamhi and Lou Torres's work than Adam does (despite my disagreements with K and T over the esthetics of music). There is also work by Roger Bissell, Stephen Cox, Kirsti Minsaas, and Mimi Gladstein that is worth reading.

You mentioned Harry Binswanger's book on teleological concepts.  The issues that Binswanger is tackling are extremely important--he's trying to account for the emergence of norms--but the book disappointed me, in surprising ways.   If you strip away the bristly rhetoric and the devaluation of work that non-Randians might have done on the subject, you'll find Binswanger taking the exact same position as several analytic philosophers.  And it is vulnerable to the same basic objection: It's important to explain how lions came to have hearts, through the course of evolution.  But that isn't the same as explaining what this heart does for this lion.


Robert Campbell







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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 6:38pmSanction this postReply
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Robert thank you very much for responding to this thread.

To go into all of these topics would be impossible and while they are all interesting here is a section you wrote that is of great interest to me.

"To the list of epistemological issues, I would also add questions about skill, or “implicit knowledge.” Rand talked about skill and emphasized its importance, but kept it out of her formal epistemology, and remained uncomfortable with anything that we human beings might know without knowing that we know it. She never stopped putting scare-quotes around “instinct,” “just knowing,” “stomach feeling” (a phrase that shows up in her journals, as quoted in Valliant's book), and so on."

Can you expand a little bit on what you are saying here?  I have some thoughts but I would rather not go into them without first hearing a more thorough explanation of this point so that I can make sure I understand.

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 8/21, 9:54pm)


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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 6:46pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

It was inevitable that we would eventually disagree about something. Sherri Tracinski (architect; Robert Tracinski's wife) has a column, "Things of Beauty," in the daily e-mail edition of The Intellectual Activist. She does not mention Kamhi and Torres by name, but her specific examples frequently disconfirm the "aesthetics" of the the Kamhi and Torres book.

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Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

Kamhi and Torres don't regard architecture as a fine art.  Obviously Sherri Tracinski would disagree with them on that.

Does she cite examples from outside of architecture that are inconsistent with K and T's views?

Robert Campbell

PS.  Wouldn't it be obligatory, in the ARI world, not to cite Kamhi and Torres's book?  Has it even been reviewed in any ARI-affiliated publication?

(Edited by Robert Campbell on 8/21, 8:44pm)


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