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Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 1:08pmSanction this postReply
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  • Hi i' m relatively new to this philosophy and since the beginning my life has changed much and i' m amazed every day by the impact it has on my life. I have read most of Rand' s books and studied every major internet site on Objectivism but still have a major problem which I hope you all can assist me with:

  • If I regard my life as my ultimate value and therefore as the standard by which I decide what things are in my interest what role does self-interest play as the essential of ethics as Rand said? I read it's the measure for right and wrong but I read also it's not an official Objectivist virtue. But what is it? Is it a certain aspect of Rationality? Is it a standard? Is it a separate virtue? She wrote rationality is the source of all virtues so I thought it would also be the essential. By the way how is essential defined? I know I'm messing up quite some important facts but it' s not so easy to understand for somebody whose native language isn' t English.

  • Thanks to everybody for your support!!!


(Edited by tok namchu on 10/13, 4:26pm)

(Edited by tok namchu on 10/13, 4:27pm)


Post 1

Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 11:50pmSanction this postReply
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tok, you wrote:

==============
I have read most of Rand' s books and studied every major internet site on Objectivism ...
==============

Wow! That's more than even I've done, and I already have earned a "black-belt" in Objectivism (I can defend it nearly as good as anyone can)! You've apparently studied Objectivism harder than I have.


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If I regard my life as my ultimate value and therefore as the standard by which I decide what things are in my interest ...

... what role does self-interest play as the essential of ethics as Rand said? ...

... Is it a certain aspect of Rationality? Is it a standard? Is it a separate virtue?
==============

tok, it is life that is essential to ethics. It's a special kind of life, too. Life for beings who have potential rationality. Plants don't have ethics. Yeah, sure, they "compete" in a "free market" for sunlight (by growing taller than other plants overshadowing them), but they don't need a code for action -- because their genes prescribe all of their "behavior." This isn't true of man, though (would you agree?). Man lives by chosen codes of action. Here are some examples of codes men have chosen:

It is wrong to live by stealing. It is right to produce needed things. It is wrong to live by forceful expropriation. It is right to employ one's mind productively.

In the one case man is living as lower animals do and taking from others whenever he can (just as some plants "take" the sunlight from others they've outgrown), but man is different from lower animals or plants (see US Constitution or UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights -- for proof of this aspect of reality).

One way to live, is to produce a bunch of good (like a bunch of food), so that you can feed yourself, etc. One way to interact with others is by trading to mutual benefit -- where you want something someone else has produced, more than some of the things that YOU have produced. Now this trading principle only works when folks look out for themselves (and produce a bunch of things to own). If they hadn't looked out for themselves so much, then there would be nothing of value to trade with others.

Rational selfishness produces increasing value (value that didn't previously exist) on planet Earth. The mind, respected, creates new values -- by which man can truly flourish.

Back to your question: Is selfishness a separate virtue? Virtue is nothing other than habit aimed at value. At first glance, it might seem that selfishness is a habit aimed at value -- but then we're stuck in a conundrum: What value is selfishness aimed at? As it turns out -- upon close inspection -- selfishness is merely the seedbed for value; a place where values can "grow." Rand mentioned 3 theories on value: Subjective, Objective, Intrinsic.

Here's what she had to say on the Subjectivist theory:

================
The subjectivist theory of ethics is, strictly speaking, not a theory, but a negation of ethics. And more: a negation of reality ...
================

Now that doesn't sound very good, does it? Subjectivists claim that each man can/should live by his "own" code -- which breaks down to: his own, rationally-groundless feelings. An Objective theory would stake claim to a code for all men, as would an Intrinsic theory. Let's take the latter first.

An Intrinsic theory of value postulates that there will be value "inside" an action (divorcing the "actor" from the good). In this respect, some actions, per se, are good -- even if they kill you. Some actions, per se, are good -- even if they kill others. It was this kind of theory that led Abraham to initiate the human sacrifice of his son -- for example. In the case of old Abe' -- the Lord had commanded that he kill his own son. The Lord's will is intrinsic (it is actor-independent, anyone can do the Lord's will -- and it'd be a good thing).

Another intrinsic theory is the environmentalist view of holding nature as sacred and above man -- where man is a cancer on earth, leaving footprints everywhere, none of them justified. This view ignores that the being "man" lives by modifying his environment. If you disagree, then I invite you to consider going to the Serengeti plains of Africa, and trying to live among the lions, without the modifications of nature that include shelter and weapons. In short, the acting moral agent can't be dismissed in the code -- if everyone got naked and wrestled, with their bare hands, with lions for food, then we wouldn't be here. It is natural and good for us (not Lord or lion) to be the primary benefactor of our choices.

And finally we get to an Objective theory of values -- what does IT say about values? Here's Rand:


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A value that one is forced to accept at the price of surrendering one's mind, is not a value to anyone; the forcibly mindless can neither judge nor choose nor value. An attempt to achieve the good by force is like an attempt to provide man with a picture gallery at the price of cutting out his eyes. Values cannot exist (cannot be valued) outside the full context of a man's life, needs, goals, and knowledge.
=============

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The free market represents the social application of an objective theory of values. Since values are to be discovered by man's mind, men must be free to discover them--to think, to study, to translate their knowledge into physical form, to offer their products for trade, to judge them, and to choose, be it material goods or ideas, a loaf of bread or a philosophical treatise. Since values are established contextually, every man must judge for himself, in the context of his own knowledge, goals, and interests. Since values are determined by the nature of reality, it is reality that serves as men's ultimate arbiter: if a man's judgment is right, the rewards are his; if it is wrong, he is the only victim.
=============

So, what we have here is a concept of value (of goodness). And in order to have it, men have to be free to discover things, and free to own products they've produced. Only individual men, thinking and producing, can discover that perfect admixture of good for them. Only they can tweak their actions to bring out that best good in their lives. The very concept of value logically rests on the concept of rational selfishness. So, rational selfishness is the seedbed for value. The virtues are the habits planted in the seedbed. The garden grown is the value -- the enrichment of the life of man.

Ed


(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 10/13, 11:54pm)

(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 10/13, 11:59pm)

(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 10/14, 12:06am)


Post 2

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 12:58amSanction this postReply
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tok,

Go to this recent article:

http://solohq.org/Articles/Haynie/Values_are_Not_Universal.shtml

... for a confirmation of the correctness of my response to you.

Ed

Post 3

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 5:38amSanction this postReply
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Thank you for your answer Ed,

1) you wrote:
tok, it is life that is essential to ethics...
Doesn' t that conflict with Rand' s view that self-interest is the essential insight of ethics?
I fully understand the direction that we' re going to. I am able to grasp the examples that you' re making but I have a problem to logically justify them. I know THAT humans have objective needs and therefore need objective values and THAT they have a volitional consciousness and therefore need ethics in contrast to plants. I am also convinced THAT people must be selfish, THAT they have to produce and not steal, my problem is less about the WHAT but more about the HOW. The simple logical justification behind the scenes is what I don' t get. How can I apply selfishness?

2)
Back to your question: Is selfishness a separate virtue? Virtue is nothing other than habit aimed at value. At first glance, it might seem that selfishness is a habit aimed at value -- but then we're stuck in a conundrum: What value is selfishness aimed at? As it turns out -- upon close inspection -- selfishness is merely the seedbed for value; a place where values can "grow."
Therefore selfishness ain't directly a virtue. Is that right? Why then did Rand write a book called the virtue of selfishness if it doesn't match the definition?

3) I currently think that the highest virtue is rationality because it is the only means to gain knowledge and therefore the most effective way to sustain my life. I think that all other virtues can be expressed as aspects of rationality. One of those virtues is productivity which aims at the cardinal value of purpose. Isn' t productivity something like the seedbed of values?

4) Maybe my problem is that I think that ethics is just about values and virtues and nothing else. I can't see selfishness being either one especially not a virtue since you said  it doesn' t aim at a value. I think my view on ethics is incomplete and that's why I get things messed up. I still don't get the point and I am thinking if I' m trying to apply it to the wrong ethical frame, since I don't see any other student of Objectivism struggling with that exact problem.... What do you think, Ed?

Thanks, Tok


Post 4

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:19amSanction this postReply
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woops! never mind, this post was an accident;-)

(Edited by tok namchu on 10/14, 11:28am)


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Post 5

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 11:34amSanction this postReply
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Hi Tok:

Welcome to Objectivism and SOLO! Regarding the provocative title of Rand's edited book, we can apply the adage: Don't judge a book by it's cover. :-) I think with the title that Rand is being provocative. I mean if anyone reads that title (especially those who are Christian and hold altruism as their ethics), they would be intrigued wouldn't they?

If I'm understanding your question, I think the issue here is that it is not selfishness per se that is should be the focus one's ethical aims. Rather, it is one's ~rational~ selfishness or enlightened self-interest that ought to guide one's moral decisions. So once people have discovered what values are ~in fact~ (objectively) to their self-interest--a process that requires rationality in itself--, then one applies rationality in achieving their self-interested values.

So I don't think you can separate selfishness from rationality in the Objectivist ethics. Selfishness in and of itself is insufficient to justify the ethical decision. After all, people can be selfish in the common understanding of the word, that is, they disregard the rights of others in getting their "values."

I hope that answers your question. I like Branden's discussion of ethics in the book _Honoring the Self_. You may want to check out his book.

Regards,

Walter


Post 6

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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tok,

===========
How can I apply selfishness?
===========

By flourishing -- and not just postponing death.


===========
Isn' t productivity something like the seedbed of values?
===========

Productivity is the gardener's work (in bearing fruits). Rational selfishness is that fertile soil (the arena containing the potentiality for all this fruit-bearing).


===========
Maybe my problem is that I think that ethics is just about values and virtues and nothing else.
===========

That's likely the problem, tok. Ethics is about 3 things, not 2. Values and virtues ... AND 'valuers' (moral agents who adopt virtues, or habits, aimed at values)


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I can't see selfishness being either one especially not a virtue since you said  it doesn' t aim at a value.
===========

But 'rational' selfishness is necessary for value production. And adding the qualifier 'rational' to selfishness (or to self-interest, if you prefer), permanently attaches virtue to that selfishness. If you habitually act to flourish and make a whole life for yourself, well lived, you've been ethical.

Now, part of a whole life, well lived, is practicing good will toward others (rational others can enrich our lives immensely). So keep in mind that rational self-interest isn't a cut-throat thing, or even a wall-off-self-from-society thing. In short, contrary to the knee-jerk notions of naysayers, rational self-interest can INCREASE the love in the world. It makes us more powerful to see good, hear good, and do good.

Ed


Post 7

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
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To Walter:
Thank you, I'm glad to be part of this movement!

To Ed:
I think that idea of the 3 basic elements of ethics really did it. I've always had the feeling my ethic was incomplete on the very basis. The virtue of selfishness was the first book on Objectivism I read and I have carried that misunderstanding ever since, until now:-)

To all:
Please let me recall these new ideas:
Ethics deals with the good and bad in human choices and actions by anouncing values and virtues for the valuer measured by the standard of his own life (and not the virtue of selfishness;-) ). Holding this standard is the essential point of ethics that contains all of its ideas. Man's life is the moral standard and essential because its improvement and success is the ultimate moral goal. Man needs ethics because he has a volitional consciousness and reality is objective (In Rand's terms: the morality of reason is contained in a single axiom: existence exists and a single choice: to live). Ethics is based on the premoral choice to live, because if one chose not to live one wouldn't need an ethical system. Put in a chart ethics would have three columns: the first one only states that the following columns are of primary importance only to myself. The second column includes my values based in reality and the third one includes my virtues based on my values.

Does that coincide with your basis of ethics?

Thanks, Tok 


Post 8

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 9:49pmSanction this postReply
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"tok namchu":

If you are actually posting this from the country of the language of your "handle," then I am truly awed by your courage.


Post 9

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 6:12amSanction this postReply
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tok,

========
To Ed:
I think that idea of the 3 basic elements of ethics really did it.
========

Glad to be of service.

Ed

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Post 10

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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To Adam:
Vielen Dank Adam :-) Ich freue mich über Deine Wertschätzung (I read about your German knowledge in your profile)

To Ed:

YOU'RE GREAT MAN, saved me lots of sweat and tears, hope to meet you again in another thread.

THANK YOU! tok

(Edited by tok namchu on 10/15, 1:12pm)


Post 11

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
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:-)

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