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Post 60

Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, I wouldn't say that "nothing would exist" because that treats nothing as an existent. Your skeptic said this, whether you meant it that way or not.

Saying that "no thing prevents (makes impossible) Existence" is not problematic, (so far as I can see) because it is not implying the existence of a naught. It is simply the negation of the false statement that "some thing prevents Existence." Since Existence does exist, it is obvious that Existence was not prevented by some thing.

If Existence was not prevented by some thing, does it not follow that no thing prevented Existence?

Roger, I am not sure how a relative cold spot in the Cosmic Background Radiation counts as "nothing."

Your double negative seems wrong, and is giving me a headache. Doesn't "Existence exists because Nothing doesn't prevent it" equal "Existence exists because some thing does prevent it?"

Also, why capitalize Nothing? I assume this was insignificant on your part, but I capitalized Existence to make it clear when I was speaking of "Everything."

Click here to understand my avatar.

Ted Keer



Post 61

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 12:21amSanction this postReply
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Bill, I wouldn't say that "nothing would exist" because that treats nothing as an existent.
No, it doesn't. Suppose I said, "I have nothing in my safe." Would you conclude from that that I was treating nothing as an existent? If you would, I'd think you were a pretty strange dude. Clearly, if I said, "I have nothing in my safe," I would simply mean that I didn't have anything in my safe. And that's exactly how the skeptic meant it in my dialogue. Remember, he is questioning why there is something in existence rather than nothing. He is not treating nothing as if it were another kind of something.

But now that we are clear on what the skeptic is saying, do you not agree that your rejoinder is insufficient to refute him, as he would reply that if nothing (i.e., not anything) exists to begin with, then nothing would exist to cause existence either. So why does it exist? Why is there something rather than nothing? It won't do to reply, "What could have prevented it?" for he would respond that simply because there isn't anything that could have prevented it doesn't explain its existence, for if there wasn't anything to prevent it, then there wouldn't have been anything to cause it either. Again, the only effective answer is simply to point out that any attempt to explain existence presupposes the very thing that one is attempting to explain.
Saying that "no thing prevents (makes impossible) Existence" is not problematic, (so far as I can see) because it is not implying the existence of a naught. It is simply the negation of the false statement that "some thing prevents Existence." Since Existence does exist, it is obvious that Existence was not prevented by some thing. If Existence was not prevented by some thing, does it not follow that no thing prevented Existence?
Yes, but however true it is, your statement doesn't satisfy its intended purpose, because it doesn't answer the skeptic; it doesn't explain why there is something rather than nothing, which is what he is asking.

- Bill



Post 62

Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 5:21amSanction this postReply
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Bill: Your premise that everything must have a cause is incorrect. Every cause must exist, but not every existent must have a cause. Causality presupposes existence -- the existence of something to act as a cause; existence does not presuppose causality.
APPLAUSE!!!!
Yes, cause and effect is a function of existence, not the reverse.
Cause and effect is a process and processes are governed by principles - which are more fundamental.
Existence is the most fundamental of all natural phenomenon.
Would it not be more likely to be explained by a principle rather than a process?




Post 63

Friday, September 28, 2007 - 11:28pmSanction this postReply
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Cause and effect is a process and processes are governed by principles - which are more fundamental.
I wouldn't put it that way; a principle is an abstract generalization; I would say that cause and effect are governed by the nature of the acting entities.
Existence is the most fundamental of all natural phenomenon.
Would it not be more likely to be explained by a principle rather than a process?
Existence is not explained by anything. On what basis could you possibly explain it, if not by reference to something that already exists? That was my point when I said that causality presupposes existence, not the other way around.

- Bill



Post 64

Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 7:03amSanction this postReply
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You have taken the term 'explain' to mean to show cause and effect relationship. None exists.
To explain is to reconcile the phenomenon of existence with the principles of logic.
To explain existence is to create understanding of the nature of existence - not the cause.


For every left there exists a right. For every to there is a fro. For every up there is a down.

For every measure of distance point 'A' is separated from point 'B', point 'B' is an equal and opposite distance from point 'A'.

For every conceivable vector or numeric value there exists an opposite equivalent.

Every action precipitates a reciprocal event - an equal and opposite reaction.

Mathematics - the language of science - encodes logic into a device called an equation which requires its elements to be equivalent on opposite sides of the argument.

From simple addition to quantum mechanics, reciprocal balance is a prevailing dynamic which even the rules of cause and effect must obey.

If within each elemental particle qualitative values were similarly balanced it would not necessarily be detectible to the senses.

If such is the case then the value of Ø may be the common essence of every element in the cosmic spectrum - the fulcrum of an eternally balanced perpetual system.

(Edited by Jack (THoR) McNally on 9/29, 9:29am)




Post 65

Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 10:06amSanction this postReply
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You have taken the term 'explain' to mean to show cause and effect relationship. None exists. To explain is to reconcile the phenomenon of existence with the principles of logic. To explain existence is to create understanding of the nature of existence - not the cause.
Okay.

- Bill



Post 66

Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 4:21pmSanction this postReply
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~ I think the whole prob with this thread is the use of 'because' as an...umm...explanation, which sounds like a 'causal' (ontological) explanation rather than a reason (epistemological) for accepting that 'existence exists.'
~ Further, once the term 'nothing' got brought up, boy does Plato's Beard grow in these arguments. Reminds me of the ending of the 2-column (and cute) essay in The Encyclopedia of Philosophy on "Nothing":  "Unless the solution be [re how to use the term 'meaningfully']...that it is not nothing that has been worrying them [existentialist philosophers], but they who have been worrying it."
~ Re 'Existence', can we just say "It is, and, th-th-th-that's all, folks!" and let it go at that?

LLAP
J:D




Post 67

Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 4:24pmSanction this postReply
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Ted:

     Thanx for the YouTube visuals on tessies. Helps us here in 'flatland' (er, 'sphereland') see the ideas bit better. --- What category did you find them in?

LLAP
J:D




Post 68

Monday, October 1, 2007 - 8:56pmSanction this postReply
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I happen to think that science actually does have some things to say on certain issues, as with the inane soul question.

As for the tesseracts, I simply used the key word tesseract.

Ted



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