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Monday, July 16, 2007 - 6:38amSanction this postReply
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According to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, economics is "a social science concerned chiefly with description and analysis of the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services."

It is this term consumption about which I wonder.  Many times producers create material assets that produce indefinitely.  Power plants, dams, houses, and so forth can last for many generations with the only "consumption" being their upkeep and maintenance.  The given definition seems to treat all material values as ultimately "consumable" but I do not know if that is true, at least not across a single generation.  Even the ancient pyramids "produce" value just by being tourist attractions.

Does this definition contain "loaded" language?

Can someone offer a better definition along with a source?


Post 1

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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Luke:

"Power plants, dams, houses, and so forth can last for many generations with the only "consumption" being their upkeep and maintenance."

I don't quite understand your problem with the definition of economics with respect to consumption. During the many generations you speak of the science of economics can describe and analyse all the aspects of the power plant operation. The rates can change according to supply and demand, the consumers can opt for alternate energy suppliers. Changes occur continually and economics is the tool we can use to understand them.

Are you assuming that "consumption" is only associated with the power plant and not the subscribers?

Sam.  


Post 2

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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I just look at the definition and it almost looks like a closed "zero sum" game.  Perhaps I am reading something sinister into the definition that is not there.  If I "invest" a block of income I "produced" into a growth stock, for instance, am I "consuming" that block of income or is something else happening to it?

I'm just having trouble understanding where the productive assets fit into the definition, Sam.  I "consume" what the power plant "produces" but I do not "consume" the power plant itself.  Well, if I did not "produce" maintenance on it and "produce" its fuel then I guess eventually it would get "consumed."


Post 3

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 8:05amSanction this postReply
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I think the confusion is with the concept of "consumption." I'm not an economist but from everything I know, consumption in economics is associated with physical consumption. "Maintenance" is not physical consumption. The paint, the replacement glass or fuel rods required for maintenance are consumed.

You produced income but that is not what was really, physically produced. You produced designs, blueprints, computer code. That productive effort was represented by "income" that was in the form of bank notes "produced" by the mint and they will ultimately be consumed by wear and have to be replaced. The income you invested will allow a capital  asset to be created ... for instance a bulldozer that can create further capital assets, but the bulldozer will be gradually consumed by wear, as all physical assets will be.

Sam


Post 4

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 8:44amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Sam.  So is it fair to say that even items that may appreciate over a single lifetime, such as a personal residence, will eventually be "consumed" over generations by wear and tear -- unless, of course, future owners "consume" paint, spackle, etc. to keep it in "like new" condition?

I am asking these questions because I am working on an article called "Experiencing Objectivism through Quicken" in which I guide the reader toward grasping these key concepts of capitalism through personal financial management software.

Charles Givens in More Wealth without Risk stated that a person can only spend money on three types of expenditures:

  • Appreciables include items that increase in value over time such as houses, stock certificates, mutual funds, works of fine art, and so forth and qualify as assets.
  • Depreciables include items that decrease in value over time such as automobiles, clothing, and so forth and qualify as assets.
  • Consumables include items readily consumed such as food, fuel, interest payments, repairs and entertainment costs and qualify as expenses.

So from what you say, even the appreciables must necessarily over time degenerate into consumables.  That may, however, take generations to happen.  For the sake of the individual, a given asset may remain appreciable for the time he owns it and thus serve his purposes well.


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Post 5

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 9:09amSanction this postReply
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Economics is the study of value production, value trading, and value consumption amongst a population of individuals.

(Just trying to put together my own succinct definition)
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 7/16, 9:14am)


Post 6

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 9:11amSanction this postReply
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Yes, something may appreciate in value but may nonetheless be gradually consumed ... but in that case the appreciation would be to external factors such as inflation or increased demand for the asset.

Undoubtedly, Charles Givens, whom you cite, is an authority but I don't quite understand why he would say that "expenses" are consumables. To me this is perhaps just shorthand (but imprecise) for the physical things that the expenses go for.

Perhaps someone else can lend a perspective here. Do we "consume" art or entertainment? Does the consumption of art take place at the time of creation, time of purchase, time of appreciation (i.e. viewing) or time of destruction? We apparently consume entertainment at the time of presentation  — after that time, it's gone. Art, like the great pyramids, never seems to get consumed in the sense of "used up."

I seem to be blathering on here because I'm not sure of myself.

Sam



Post 7

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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I think you guys are trying to use the word "consumption" in the wrong way. I think the more important part of economics is value trading and value tracking. Consumption would mean value loss, and production would mean value increase, (value determined by the going price in the population that you are studying).
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 7/16, 9:19am)


Post 8

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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Sam wrote:
I seem to be blathering on here because I'm not sure of myself.
Exactly!  Now you understand my need for clarity here.

Basically, standard texts on personal financial management like Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki divide financial terms into four broad categories:

  • Assets consist of what you own such as houses, cars, boats, stocks, bonds, etc.
  • Liabilities consist of what you owe such as mortgages, loans, credit card balances, etc.
  • Incomes consist of cash flowing to your accounts such as salaries, commissions, stock dividends, interest earnings, etc.
  • Expenses consist of cash flowing from your accounts such as utilities payments, interest payments, etc.

For me to talk sensibly about increasing net worth, cash flow, etc. I would need to show how all these terms tie back to the basic definition of economics.

 

Inflation aside, I think we can fairly say that the total wealth in a capitalistic society even with "zero population growth" will increase over time based on the accumulation of knowledge about how to achieve material human values with greater and greater effectiveness.  The culture as a whole becomes smarter and more productive.  Continuous improvement becomes the norm.

 

I would assume that a reasonably intelligent and basically honest person would have the same experience and so grow his net worth over time at the micro level.  This would imply that the individual would spend the first half or more of his life accumulating productive assets and the remainder of his life "distributing" or "consuming" them.  All this becomes possible if he lives a profitably productive early life, i.e. if he produces more than he immediately consumes just to stay alive.

 

Even if he "retires" from his role as a Producer, he still must remain fully engaged as an effective Investor if he wants his productive assets to support him until nature "consumes" him via natural death.

 

Is this a fair analysis?


Post 9

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
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Consumption. It looks like this is a good reference.

"Consumption can also be defined as "the selection, adoption, use, disposal and recycling of goods and services", as opposed to their design, production and marketing."


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Post 10

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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Here is the definition from George Reisman (Capitalism)

Economics:

"the science that studies the production of wealth under a system of division of labor"

In Objectivism our morality is based upon rational self interest and the reason why we seek to produce wealth and why we seek to be part of a division of labor society follow from the idea of man acting in his own rational self interest. So this definition of economics follows from an understanding of rational self interest.

This definition is very different from the common definition which is something along the lines of "The study of how society distributes scarce resources" for reasons that are obvious.

- Jason


Post 11

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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I like Reisman's definition much more than the one I cited initially.  Thanks, Jason!

Post 12

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 5:21pmSanction this postReply
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Jason, based on your definition, I just want to jump in real quick to mention Adam Smith's THE WEALTH OF NATIONS (coincidentally, I just happen to be reading this for the first time.) This book is supposed to be the grandaddy of economic studies (economics: 'economics' is from the Greek for ????? (oikos: house) and ????? (nomos: custom or law), hence "rules of the house(hold).")
The first part of the book is given over largely to the division of labor.

While looking for more information about the book last night, I was interested to learn that Rothbard and Von Mises both had reservations about the book, both remarked that it led to Marxism and such, which is where I think the concerns about the use of the term consumption come into play. The irony is that this book is supposed to lay down the gauntlet for laissez faire economics...I think Peikoff noted Smith's Christian influence in OMINOUS PARALLELS...

Rothbard makes claims of plagiarism on Smith's part (irony...), but also makes a case against Smith for exaggerating the role of the division of labor...the Adam Smith Myth:

"But there are more troubles in the Smithian division of labour than his exaggerating its importance. The older and truer perception of the motive power for specialization and exchange was simply that each party to an exchange (which is necessarily two-party and two-commodity) benefits (or at least expects to benefit) from the exchange; otherwise the trade would not take place. But Smith unfortunately shifts the main focus from mutual benefit to an alleged irrational and innate 'propensity to truck, barter and exchange', as if human beings were lemmings determined by forces external to their own chosen purposes. As Edwin Cannan pointed out, Smith took this tack because he rejected the idea of innate differences in natural talents and abilities, which would naturally seek out different specialized occupations. Smith instead took the egalitarian-environmentalist position, still dominant today in neoclassical economics, that all labourers are equal, and therefore that differences between them can only be the result rather than a cause of the system of the division of labour."

I still need to learn more about that, but thought I'd throw this in for conversation's sake. But so far, it seems that division of labor IS a major component. I'd love to hear more from those with more knowledge on this.

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Post 13

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 4:45pmSanction this postReply
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Luke, et al.--

I have been following this discussion with interest; this was my first opportunity to contribute to the discussion.  As I read the exchange between Luke and Sam, I think I understand the problem Luke is having with the Merriam-Webster definition.  The definition is actually quite good (particularly from the standpoint of

pedagogy); the problem is that it compresses complex and inter-related ideas.  Probably the best way to address some of Luke's questions is to parse out and describe the elements of the definition.

Merriam-Webster defines economics as, "a social science concerned chiefly with description and analysis of the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services."

I'll use the given order of the terms production, distribution, and consumption to flesh out and show the relationship between each of these terms.  The example I will use will be very simple with the firm as the locus of production, the (domestic) Market as the locus of distribution and the household as the locus of consumption.

Production begins when an individual or group of individuals come together to form a firm.  The firm begins with an initial stock of capital (cash).  With that capital, the firm purchases land on which to build an office or factory, raw materials and labor to incorporate/transform into products to be sold.  Through the labor process, the raw materials and labor combine to make the products the firm sells.  These products are either intermediate products or final products.  Intermediate products are sold to other firms; final goods are sold to consumers.

Distribution.  The Market is where buyers and sellers come together to exchange goods.  The price system is the mechanism by which quantities of goods are exchanged.  Supply and demand for a good determines its price.  Firms receive revenue from the sale of goods produced; the firm exchanges a portion of its revenue to purchase raw materials or intermediate goods to produce the goods it will sell in a future time period.  Households exchange a portion of income earned to purchase goods in the Market.

Consumption.  Households purchase final goods on the Market.  Income, tastes and preferences, price sensitivity and substitutability of goods determine the quantity and types of goods a household consumes.

I'll address some of the other issues in posts that will follow.

Kevin




Post 14

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 5:37pmSanction this postReply
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Problems with two definitions posed

In this thread, two people have posed the following alternative definitions of economics:

1.  Economics is the study of value production, value trading, and value consumption amongst a population of individuals.

2.  The science that studies the production of wealth under a system of division of labor

My problem with the first is that the term "value" in economics means something completely different from philosophy.  In economics, value is a near synonym for price (the differences are a bit complex; I would have to go back to my references to refresh my memory). 

My problem with the second is that only talks about the production part of economics but does not say anything about the distribution or consumption of wealth.

If by "objective" Luke means both value neutral, inclusive and brief, the Merriam-Webster is the best.


Post 15

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 6:36pmSanction this postReply
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Kevin Patrick Kirkwood,
My problem with the first is that the term "value" in economics means something completely different from philosophy. In economics, value is a near synonym for price (the differences are a bit complex; I would have to go back to my references to refresh my memory).
In Objectivism (the assumed philosophy here), value means "that which one acts to gain or keep". Higher the value, the more one is willing to act to gain or keep. US Dollars, price, is a good way to measure value, because you have to act to gain or keep it (its a value to most people), and its extremely liquid, almost everyone uses it for trading. Some things are difficult to put a USD price to (antiques maybe). Some things some people would not put a USD price to (the custody of one's child), and they may never trade. Does that make sense, or is there still a problem?

"I value honesty." Impossible to convert to USD. "I'll pay you $10 to tell me the truth." "You can't work for us if you don't tell the truth."

Post 16

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 8:47pmSanction this postReply
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I am curious that no one seems to have made the distinction between capital and non-capital goods.

A hen or a cow that produces eggs or milk and offspring is capital, so long as it produces. You can also convert that capital into a roast, but you won't get any more milk or eggs.

Ted

d'oh

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 7/16, 9:11pm)


Post 17

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 8:58pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

If you're writing a guide to personal financial management, you might want to rely on some of the definitions used in the Federal Income Tax Code. For example, if I recall, the tax code discerns an expense from an expenditure. An expense reduces wealth. An expenditure merely changes the form that wealth takes. In terms of growing wealth, expenses are bad, expenditures are good. Likewise, the tax code discerns consumables from assets. Consumables are the items you that benefit you for less than 1 year. Assets are items that benefit you for greater than 1 year. For wealth, consumables bad, assets good.

Jordan

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Post 18

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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Ted:

"A hen or a cow that produces milk..."

Shouldn't you be posting this on the "hybrids" thread?

Sam


Post 19

Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 4:23amSanction this postReply
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In Post #15, Dean wrote (in part):
 
In Objectivism (the assumed philosophy here), value means "that which one acts to gain or keep". Higher the value, the more one is willing to act to gain or keep. US Dollars, price, is a good way to measure value, because you have to act to gain or keep it (its a value to most people), and its extremely liquid, almost everyone uses it for trading. Some things are difficult to put a USD price to (antiques maybe). Some things some people would not put a USD price to (the custody of one's child), and they may never trade. Does that make sense, or is there still a problem?

Dean--

Our differences appear to be in our definitions of objective and value.  In Luke's original post, he asked if the Merriam-Webster's definition was in fact an objective definition (i.e., accurate and concise).  I said that it was, though I acknowledged the problems with it.  I would also argue that it is an Objective (i.e., the philosophy) as well.  One of the key ideas in Objectivism (as I understand it) is the accurate perception of reality.  The Meririam-Webster definition meets that Objectivist standard.

At its root, economics deals with goods and services.  Substituting value for goods in the Merriam-Webster definition does not make the definition any clear (or more Objective)for two reasons.  First, the definition does not answer the question "what is valued?" Second, the term "value" in economics is nearly the same as price.

I found this brief article in Wikipedia on the term value in economics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_%28economics%29.  Contrast this definition with Wikipedia's definition of value from a philosophical perspective: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_%28personal_and_cultural%29.

Kevin



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