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Post 0

Monday, December 29, 2003 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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I prime example of a poem written in a rational, intellectual way. The ideas are put across - but it is dead and lifeless.

This would have made a good essay - it mkes a bad poem!

Stick to wat you do best.

M

Post 1

Monday, December 29, 2003 - 7:59pmSanction this postReply
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I must respectfully disagree with Ms. Mary concerning the lifelessness of my poem. Take, for example, the following stanza:

Bears' caves are frozen and their owners hibernating,
A barren blanket shrouds them all in murk.
But men are not themselves before the cold prostrating.
In air-conditioned offices they work.

One can see the dreary environment of the bears and the image of the blanket covering all attempts at movement and progress; then one receives the impression that man is NOT of that sort, that he does not spread himself out before nature like that blanket of snow, that instead he pursues his individual objectives in a refreshing, rejuvenating environment such as an air-conditioned office. All of that, the cave, the images of submission, and of the setting for industriousness, is conveyed in four lines.

Lifeless? I think not.

Post 2

Monday, December 29, 2003 - 8:55pmSanction this postReply
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The very fact that you can so easy deconstruct it shows that it has been similarly "constructed" along these lines.

This method makes it seem too laboured, lacking in natural flow. Your creativity seems to be constrained by your rationality. Both are needed to write great poetry!

But mine is just one opinion - if you like it then best of luck to you.

Post 3

Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:26pmSanction this postReply
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Mary, I think you missed the key to deconstructing Mr. Stolyarov's poem, even after he put it right under your nose in his last post. Here it is again:

Bears' caves are frozen and their owners hibernating,
A barren blanket shrouds them all in murk.
But men are not themselves before the cold prostrating.
In air-conditioned offices they work.

Don't you see? Even though it seems like a barren, murky winter to the bears, the men are saying, in effect, "You bears call this cold, do you? Well we humans are tougher than you! We'll show you by turning on our air-conditioners and making our offices colder! Ha! To hell with hibernation, furnaces, and other cop-outs, we'll inflict on ourselves even more than mother nature can muster, and we'll still triumph!"

So I disagree with you. Mr. Stolyarov's creativity is defintitely not constrained by his rationality.

Karl

Post 4

Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
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I think you have missed MY point!

But be that so I will not boter to state it again...re-read my last post!

M

Post 5

Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 2:11pmSanction this postReply
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Anyway - thats all I ahve to say - I assume it was posted here to recieve feedback. Please dont give feedback on MY comments. Give your own feedback on the poem - that would be a lot more constructive and useful to the poet!

Post 6

Friday, January 2, 2004 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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Mary, I feel I must give a response to your comment.

You seem to imply that poetry should not be constrained by rationale or logic. Do you disagree that poetry has underlying meanings? Do you disagree that any poet is trying to tell a story?

If you like poetry because of the non-sense of it, you aren't fully appreciating it.

Here's an example from a well known poem, (Shall I compare thee to a summer's day, by William Shakespeare)

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate.
Rough winds doth shake the darling buds of may
And summer's lease hath all too short a date.

In this extract we can see there is definitely logic involved; in fact it is quite intellectual. He is comparing his wife/lover to a summer's day, saying how she is more lovely and such, and doing a good job of it I would say. Is it rational? It is not conventional, but I do think it is rational.

It is vital for a poem to have some continuity, which binds it together. A poem should never IMHO leave you feeling like something was left out. This central theme is definitely rational. The method of expression in poetry is with metaphors and such, but underneath it is rational. A poem with no rational backbone would be a waste of words.

Stolyarov's poem is a bit plain, and doesn't stimulate the imagination all that much, but don't slam the rationality that it has. The author perhaps should have tried to make it less explicit, but that is merely my subjective opinion, and I am not by any stretch of the imagination a poetry buff.

However, in the context that the poem was written, I can understand the explicitness of it. Objectivists being as there are are enamored with what is real, and I think they don't much appreciate illusion and such. For this audience, such an explicit poem might be better received.

The only real problem I have with it this:

Quote:
"Each bite of nourishment by purposed plight provided, I shall not turn the other cheek upon this day. Whim-riddled overlords my fate shan't have decided, 'Tis time for Man-worship to have its say.

"Nature will laugh, no longer by blight tarnished, And on its outskirts human outposts shall arise"

I don't understand the line "Nature will laugh, no longer by blight tarnished". The rest of the poem seems to imply that nature suffers its blight but humans have overcome it. It than says humans will work for themselves. How then is nature saved from this blight? This statement hangs in the air, disjunct from the flow of the poem. The rest of the poem has good continuity, though.

Also, the reference to 'whim-ridden overlords' seems rather strange, as it doesn't imply anywhere that the man isn't driven by whim himself. In what way will he be better? The author has left the reader guessing as to whether nature will be better off or not, even though it says it will be, and whether this man is any different to the 'whim-ridden overlords'. These are the only problems I see.

Post 7

Friday, January 2, 2004 - 3:23pmSanction this postReply
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Like I said - there is no point commenting on my opinion. But since you did :

If you had read carefully you would have seen that I said than poems need two things :

creativity and rationality.

Shakespear indeed has both - this poet only has the latter.

Please read more carefully!

I do not imply that the first alone is enough. A poem does need a structure, whatever that structure may be - it also neds to be connected so so that it may be viewed as a whole - this requires a certain amount of logic and rationality...but that alone is not enough!

The poem above is clunky and does not flow - try
reading it aloud a couple of times. So much of the beauty has been sacrificed to get in yet one more concept - yet one more intellectual idea. There must be a balance between the ideas and the beauty. If it is all ideas - it becomes an essay - if it is all beauty it become (perhaps) a soppy but empty piece...in the middle is a good poem.

I did not say both were not needed - I just expressed that IN MY OPINION this particular poem has strayed far too far in one direction. Don't see this as an attack - see it as constructive critisism. After all I am the potential audience!


Please don't imply I said something I did not!

Love,

Mary.

Post 8

Friday, January 2, 2004 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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I did jump the gun a little, I see now you did indeed say both rationality and creativity are needed.

I recall in school mates of mine tried to write poetry and they all had no flow or backbone at all, and were completely pointless. Many people seem to think that poetry is nothing but a plethora of fancy words; a fanciful waste of time when a simple exposition of intent would suffice.

Post 9

Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 10:29amSanction this postReply
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Mr. vertigo: "I don't understand the line 'Nature will laugh, no longer by blight tarnished'. The rest of the poem seems to imply that nature suffers its blight but humans have overcome it. It than says humans will work for themselves. How then is nature saved from this blight? This statement hangs in the air, disjunct from the flow of the poem. The rest of the poem has good continuity, though."

Mr. Stolyarov: I am implying here that Nature, in its primeval state, suffers from the blight, but man is capable of shaping his environment in such a manner as to overcome it. Does he not, then, through this very act improve on the state of Nature and protect it from the blight through the introduction of artificial conveniences?

Remember that, in Objectivist thought, man is not viewed as the antagonist or invader of Nature, but rather as an entity whose own nature, that of reason and technology, must be exercised for his own survival. According the Objectivism, any modification to Nature that is in man's interests is an amelioration of Nature.

Mr. vertigo: "Also, the reference to 'whim-ridden overlords' seems rather strange, as it doesn't imply anywhere that the man isn't driven by whim himself. In what way will he be better?"

Mr. Stolyarov: Recall the line, "'Tis Reason that allows us now to dine!" Man as a rational being, driven by objective purpose, has created all those conveniences which enabled him to celebrate even amid the barrenness of those parts of the Earth that he does not yet directly control. Arbitrary whim, or slavery to the whims of others, could never have elevated man to such a glorious state.

Thank you for your feedback and your inquiries. I hope my clarification has been helpful to you as well.

Post 10

Sunday, January 4, 2004 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
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I think of a man's whim as what he chooses to do. In this sense, whether he is guided by reason or some ideal, it hardly makes a difference. I think it is implied that whims have no foundation of any sort, and are fanciful by nature. I will look up the word. By this definition certainly the man isn't a 'whim-ridden overlord', although I would call him an overlord, as he takes what he can and uses it. All is in his domain.

All I can say about the other point is much that humans have done seems to me to be detrimental to nature. Whether this is a direct result of reason not being used I can't comment on. In the free market, I don't see much control over resources like fish, forests, etc. Of course, if we think of man's meddling as part of nature, what he does is natural, and the result is still nature, just a different nature.

When you say he saves nature from its blight, I still don't see how it is saved. You seem to be simply choosing to view the result as a part of nature, a nature where certain natural occurances have been overcome by a natural species. Like beavers build dams, men modify there environment. In that sense you make sense, however skyscrapers and factories don't seem to be a part of nature to me.

Sorry if I have missed your meaning, I haven't thought much about this.

Post 11

Monday, January 5, 2004 - 12:09pmSanction this postReply
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I was wrong, whim does strictly imply being unpredictable, without much thought. Therefore I have no problem with your 'whim-ridden overlords' comment.

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