About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


Post 20

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
HA!!  The hairstyle is even suitable in the first photo.  :)

Post 21

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 8:39amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"All right Ford Hall!.......are you ready to ROCK?" *dry ice and laser lights go off in the backstage*

Post 22

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Oh yeah sure, he can open for the Spinal Tap come back tour.

~E.


Post 23

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Linz: "Thinkers don't force anyone to agree with them."

Amen! -- Bravo! -- Right on!

Barbara

Post 24

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 3:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert: "I'm really uncomfortable with this idea of calling bad ideas, as such "evil".

So am I. Decidedly uncomfortable. The concept that ideas can be good or evil is a great way to make people afraid to think, and belongs with ARI. Ideas are not moral agents! Only people are. What people do can be good or evil; not what they think.

Barbara



Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 25

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 7:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I also think this is a preposterous poll.

And Andrew...Kant's mom? What if she was a babe, as Jesus's mom was? Can a hot babe really be the most evil person ever? I think not.

Obviously, she could be evil in the sense that most women are evil, in that they use their power over men for purposes of enslavement. But that wouldn't justify a number 1 spot.

Alec


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 26

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 9:37pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I certainly don't have too much common ground with Lindsay on this one, folks! ;-) I sort of wonder what planet he lives on. Linz writes:

We've had this discussion before, & I want to say again: to aver that Kant or any other thinker was "the most evil person in history" is nonsensical. It's ARI hysteria, born of slavish devotion to the foolish notion that Ayn Rand never said anything foolish.
No-one criticizes AR (or ARI) more than I do, but in this case I think Rand was right. As far as I can tell, Kant attacks reality and reason more and better than anyone in human history. He quitely but deftly slams the validity/accuracy of the senses and the thinking processes wantonly, and with unequalled and diabolical cleverness.

Kant's heretofore winning technique, I guess, is he successfully gulls the rubes with his laughably anfractuous style and pointlessly sequipedalian verbiage. He knows full well no-one of intelligence or virtue is going to waste their precious existence on the thankless yoeman's task and singularly unrewarding "labor of love" of refuting his tedious, empty, worthless pretentions and fatuosities. The moral of this story is just write long, hard, boring, and tricky enough and you automatically win. People have lives to lead and so they contemptuosly quit the intellectual field of play and leave you the last man standing.

But make no mistake, people: Kant's cant cuts the ground out from under us and turns all of existence into quavering jello. We don't know and can't think anything. His impact is insideous, pernicious, almost infinitely subtle, and virtually secret -- but overwhelmingly powerful.

I wonder if Lindsay is aware that he's badly contradicting his own thesis at the October, 2003 Philadelphia SOLO conference? [It would help if this was available as a formal essay, by the way.] He reported there that the key to his own conversion to Objectivism was a highly annoying, irritating friend repeatedly insisting to him that "a chair is a chair" and that "A is A" etc. Kant is the plain simple truth "all-destroyer" and "A is not A" world champion. 
We all know what she was driving at ... but to insist that Kant was *literally* the most evil man in history?!

I truly don't know what she was "driving at." I assume she meant what she said. If there's another point to grasp here I'd like to know what it is.

Kant strikes me as the foremost proponent of unreason and the most formidable destroyer of the human mind and confidence in the human thinking process ever. He is the great underminer and undercutter of Western Civilization. Kant does indeed lay the foundation for infinite mischief and stupendous evil. Silly twit goofball losers like Hitler and weakling random thug mediocrities like Stalin couldn't harm a fly without him.


Thinkers don't force anyone to agree with them. Thinkers whose ideas had bad consequences didn't usually (if ever) intend them; usually (if not always) they intended the reverse.


This all seems so naive, speculative, and false. Ultra-smart thinkers like Kant almost certainly know what they're doing. Rand said as much. They know what the consequences of their words are. They also know that virtually the totality of humanity is in the classic position of "knowing no evil, they fear none." Humanity is terribly vulnerable here and it's up to somebody of strong mind to refute Kant -- or he wins.

At some point, most of the commentary on this issue shows a considerable lack of understanding of the power and results of ideas. It badly underestimates the power of philosophy itself. No-one seems to grasp that, as Rand put it, "ideas matter."

And what else is true based on the above reading of the history of ideas, I wonder? Was Aristotle just some guy who wrote really boring, unhelpful, irrelevant stuff about metaphysics, epistemology, and logic which we all knew already? Did he actually accomplish very little -- just use reason (which is so lame -- and even cheating a bit) to point out the obvious? Was it all just various common sense notions which no-one ever doubted or was ignorant of in the first place? Was it all just ideas and concepts that can never be doubted or lost -- even with a hundred Kants in charge? I find the Linz Theory of Intellectualism passing strange...

There's so much evidence against the above viewpoint. I guess I'll just end by pointing out that without the pseudo-philosophers and anti-reasonists Berkeley, Hume, Kant, Hegel, etc. religion wouln't have even a broken leg to stand on. At minimum, 99% of their power would be vitiated and the events of 9/11 would be confined to unsellable science fiction.





Post 27

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 10:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andre, you forgot Hobbes.

Hobbes indirectly enabled the persistent grasp which religion has - and has had - on man's mind, just as much any other philosopher did. I find it hard to judge whose thought has led more to the societal dominance of religion in the developing Western world: Augustine, Kant, or Hobbes.

Hobbes and Kant (with just a sprinkle of Hegel) make a particularly nasty mix. As evidence, seek out the root motivations and medium-range ideals of the ironically-leftist NeoConStraussians.

Ed

Post 28

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 11:58pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
WTF?! Ussama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Pol-Pot, and Kenny G didn't make the list?!

Adam

Post 29

Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 12:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
quote  The concept that ideas can be good or evil is a great way to make people afraid to think, and belongs with ARI. Ideas are not moral agents! Only people are. What people do can be good or evil; not what they think.

Oh come now. Marxism isn't an evil idea? Hitler's murderous version of racial ascendancy wasn't an evil idea? Don't you have to *think* the Jews ought to be wiped out before you embark on a campaign to slaughter them all? This almost seems to be flirting with the mind-body dichotomy to me.

I'm as wary as anyone of the "Fact and Value" mindset that treats ideas as independent marauding agents wreaking havoc on the world. That particular bit of Peikovian thinking is just rationalism run amok, and it leads to the ostracisms we've seen from ARI (any deviation from the party line is seen as a dire threat and quashed accordingly). But I think we'd be cutting our nose off despite our face if we toss out the moral evaluation of ideas just because we're worried it might make us resemble ARI somewhat.
quote  Obviously, she could be evil in the sense that most women are evil, in that they use their power over men for purposes of enslavement. But that wouldn't justify a number 1 spot.
It's always hard to tell these things on the Internet Alec, but I hope you didn't miss the point of my first post, which was to poke fun at the ARI "Kant is the most evil man in history because he made Hitler possible" line. However, based on the Kant quote about women that was posted to SOLO a while ago, I must surmise that his mother must have been a grizzled, dog-faced old frump to have inspired such a cold, indifferent skepticism toward the fairer sex.

I have to agree about the underlying premises of the poll though. We sabotage one of the best points in Objectivism--that evil is anti-life and therefore fundamentally impotent--when we start throwing around candidates for "the most evil person in history." I think Ed makes a great point about the consequentialism implied in choosing the person who killed the most people (or, if you wish, whose ideas have killed the most people). Who knows how many people have had worse moral characters or more evil designs than Hitler and Stalin, but lacked the popular support to implement them? If you really believe evil is impotent, it makes sense to conclude that the most evil man in history lived a lonely, obscure, and utterly failed life.

(Edited by Andrew Bissell on 11/17, 12:56am)


Post 30

Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 1:10amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Alec,
Obviously, she could be evil in the sense that most women are evil, in that they use their power over men for purposes of enslavement

Power over people is what you give them Alec. If some woman exercised power over you as you are implying - you gave it to her. Don't blame others for your own weakeness, and moral failures.
Cass


Post 31

Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 5:09amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

I'm as wary as anyone of the "Fact and Value" mindset that treats ideas as independent marauding agents wreaking havoc on the world. That particular bit of Peikovian thinking is just rationalism run amok, and it leads to the ostracisms we've seen from ARI (any deviation from the party line is seen as a dire threat and quashed accordingly). But I think we'd be cutting our nose off despite our face if we toss out the moral evaluation of ideas just because we're worried it might make us resemble ARI somewhat.


Moral evaluation of an idea is not the same as a moral evaluation of the man who holds it.

Post 32

Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andrew, thanks for the critical acknowledgment. You, yourself, have shown a profound insight regarding the personally-powerless aspect of evil. I suppose that this is where the "sanction of the victim" digs in, so that the whole anti-life enterprise can get off the ground.

The evil individual (without the sanction of others) is a self-limiting, self-stultifying, self-defeating creature.

If left to the consequences earned by evasion, nature would merely run its course and terminate the undisciplined (unwilling to adopt reality and responsibility) life-form prematurely. Nature would snuff the life out of any creature adopting such an action-plan.

This, by the way, was ingredient #4 of my "recipe for evil" above. The scapegoat is a requirement. Evil cannot survive without heads to bring to the chopping block. This arms those who are in battle with evil by giving them an extra tip-off or red-flag to spot.

Beyond merely spotting willful evasion in another; we can look for scapegoats and trace back from there, in order to find the originator of the process leading to their demise.

A nice thing about evil is that it is arrogant, being a willful half-wit (and assuming all others to be operating from the same self-stultified perspective), evil folk are overconfident in their ability to "fool all the people, all the time." This allows critical thinkers to identify them (or their chosen "evil" - to be more PC about it).

Ed

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 33

Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 11:02amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
For the purpose of this question, I'll give Kant and Plato and Hegel and maybe even Marx a pass.  Ok, maybe not Marx.  Still, there is a distinction to be drawn between the thought and the action.  The thread is not "the evil that men think," or "the evil that men espouse."

I voted for "Other."  My vote goes to The Bureaucrat as the most evil person in mankind's history.  Without him Stalin, Mao, and Hitler would have stood alone ranting impotently on their soap boxes as people went about their business.  Without the men with quills or typewriters or computers and folding tables, death camps and reigns of terror are completely unmanageable; atrocities may occur, but the miasma of sustained, oppressive, all pervasive evil can not set in.  Without The Bureaucrat looking out for his pension and benefits and special privileges, the government death machines grind to a halt.

It is entirely appropriate that we name no single, individual bureaucrat for this award; the bureaucrat hasn't earned individual recognition; he has only earned his title:  Bureaucrat.  For the purpose of this award, let him remain nameless.  And we will cast the bronze sculpture of him without a face.


Post 34

Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andrew, yes, I know you were making fun!!!!!!!!!!

Cass, good Loooooooooord.  

But female sexual power over (hetero) men is innate.


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 35

Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler.
Those are definitely the top murderers or "evil-doers" in human history. They were well educated for their generation. They were intelligent, charismatic, original and creative in their own right. They were able to attract many followers, and motivate the worst of the society and the worst qualities in their people.

As for the so called "Bureaucrat" or the individuals who actually execute the evil deed,  most of them are just average people. As somebody cited in another thread, Ayn Rand said:
In Soviet Russia, there aren't very many innocent ones—and they're mainly in concentration camps.
Yes, man's first instinct is to survive. In Hitler's Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia or Communist China, average people's lives were dependent of the system. People had to do what they were told. Those who resisted were no longer exist after years and waves of purge and persecution.

Also, a person's mind could actually be twisted to adapt the evil mentality when he saw how his family members, friends, acquaintances fell one after another for doing the opposite. These people must be separated from those who were the real masterminds of evil.   




Post 36

Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 6:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hong

There's a passage from the book Wild Swans that has stuck with me for years. When describing the denunciations and public beatings during the Cultural Revolution, Jung Chang wrote:
The Cultural Revolution taught me not to judge people by their convictions, but by their potential for cruelty and meanness.
From what I recall she was referring to the fact that while everyone was forced to participate in beatings at some point, some would do their best to fake it, while others would relish it. That sounds like what you are describing, people completely cowed by brutality.

I think the point is that bureaucrats are responsible for letting things get to that stage. The longer you let collectivism fester the harder it is to eradicate, and it's the bureaucrats competing for political power that feed the system in the first place.


Post 37

Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 7:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tim, that's exactly what I meant. In all societies, there are always a spectrum of people, from the most gentle and kind hearted to the most cruel and violent. However men like Stalin, Hitler or Mao are way way outside the normal spectrum. They are a class of their own.

Post 38

Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 1:13amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
For the most evil person I am aware of, I would say my ex-girlfriend's mother, who consciously tried to make her daughter doubt her ability to do anything to crush her daughter's spirit so she would be properly "feminine", and who pushed her son to attempted suicide in her efforts to ruin his first love after she found out they were sexually involved, and who trapped her husband, a brilliant architect and philosopher, into family obligations to ensure a dependable respectable social status.  Incidentally, she also tried to destroy our relationship, first, and then use a long term illness I suffered from, which made our relationship a poisonous dependency, to pressure us to become married, and to pressure me personally into guilt at not being properly 'masculine' (this is before I came out as transgender; when I did her composure of politeness broke down into explicit gender hatred).  In her professional life, she was a public school teacher; here she was actually fairly competent, though quite conformist in her methods; I shudder at what she really did to her students.


Sanction: 2, No Sanction: 0
Post 39

Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 12:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
By the way, one other important candidate was left off the poll. He usually tops the list of "The Most Influential People In History." He had messianic delusions. And his followers dragged a flourishing Western world into 1000 years of darkness and stagnation.

At least on a consequentialist basis, Jesus Christ could very well be the most evil man in history.


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.