RoR: Forum

Though the Question and Mr. A are separate characters, I think it proper to post them as one here because of their vast similarity. The biggest difference between the two is that the Question was created by Steve Ditko as work for hire with all rights to the character belonging to Charlton Comics until sold to DC Comics years later. Mr. A, however, is owned completely by Ditko who maintains copyright and trademark control to this day. Contrary to the poll listing, Stan Lee has never had any involvement in the creation or writing of these two characters.

I read and was in awe of both the Question and the new Blue Beetle when Ditko worked on them in the sixties after breaking with Marvel Comics. This work is groundbreaking in presenting Objectivist ideas in the super-hero genre of comics. I would love to see DC produce a collection of this work. They've already published Ditko's earliest Charlton superhero work in Action Heroes Archives Vol. 1 featuring Captain Atom written by Joe Gill. I hope they include Ditko's Blue Beetle and Question in subsequent volumes. You will find no greater Objectivist role models for children or adults than the new Blue Beetle and the Question by Ditko.

I didn't discover Mr. A until I was an adult. This is comparable in many ways to Ditko's Question work and also highly recommended for its presentation of Objectivist role models. Examples of this work can be scarce and prices reflective of that.

Spider-man, though having a very Objectivist influence because of co-creator, co-plotter and artist Ditko, is less than Objectivist because of co-creator, writer Stan Lee's contribution. Lee would usually give Ditko a one or two page synopsis; Ditko would flesh out the plot making changes as he saw fit, draw the story and often make suggestions as to dialogue; Lee would then write the captions and dialogue.

It's not clear that Ditko was an Objectivist at the beginning of his Spider-man work but he clearly was at the end. If you're looking for comics to present proper role models for children (or adults), you probably can't do better currently than the collections of Lee/Ditko Spider-man and Doctor Strange works that are available. These collections come in various formats (both inexpensive and expensive) and are readily available.

One note of warning: don't expect later versions of various Ditko creations to maintain the rational qualities he brought to those characters. Of particular note, later versions of the Question are very clearly not Objectivist.

(Edited by Bob Palin on 1/02, 12:06pm)

Post 1

Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 6:30pm

Thanks for your thoughts, Bob. Wanted to add that there is a new Question series out now, though my perusal through it found it to be crap. He is in Metropolis, though, interacting with a certain big blue boyscout...
And since you mentioned Blue Beetle, I just read that DC supposedly has big plans for him in 2005...

As for Ditko's Spiderman, I've always wondered if "with great power comes great responsibility" was Ditko or Lee...I can see the validity from an O'ist view point, but more often than not, Spiderman was almost self-sacrificial in his webswinging, though I think the catch is that it is tragic for him, as opposed to being rewarding.

Post 2

Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 7:27pm

Joe,

I read the first issue of DC's new Question series. I didn't like it and haven't bought any subsequent issues.

I haven't been impressed with most of DC's revivals of Ditko characters. The most recent version of Shade the Changing Man and both recent versions of the Creeper left me cold.

As far as Spider-man, the first thirty-eight issues, two annuals and introduction in Amazing Fantasy are watered down Objectivism, in other words Ditko's Objectivism compromised by Stan Lee's altruism. I think it's Ditko's co-plotting and art that make these stories great. Ditko took over complete plotting in the final fourteen issues and last annual he worked on and these are the best of the entire Lee/Ditko series.

And I'm not trying to bash Stan Lee here. He was an excellent editor and had a flair for writing and promotion that cannot be denied. But he does need to check his premises. "Nuff said."

Post 3

Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 7:39pm

Understood, Bob. And bad premises or not, Stan Lee did bring a level of sophistication to comics not seen at that time, giving the characters more depth than the DC characters. Plus, he is THE hypeman for the industry!
Could you imagine Stan Lee as an Objectivist? There's a "What If?" Story for you!

Post 4

Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 6:09pm

I vote for the Transformer: Optimus Prime, by virtue of his famous quote: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings."

Post 5

Monday, January 3, 2005 - 4:28am

I chose Superman because he is the superhero I admired as a youngster. For me he was the symbol of strength, perfection and pure benevolence.

Spiderman just seemed a little bit too strange. However, my exposure to Spiderman was after the Ditko years. Now as an adult when the Ditko inspired films have been released I see him in a completely new and more appreciative light.

Post 6

Monday, January 3, 2005 - 11:58am

On the list, Batman is my favorite, then Spiderman. Batman is a self-made man, and I think that his attempts to provide justice are arguably libertarian, if not Objectivist.

I voted for "Other", with the X-Men, particularly Wolverine and the Beast in mind, but with all the characters exemplifying lots of interesting elements of human nature. Of course, that has little to do with Objectivism :).

(Edited by Next Level on 1/03, 12:01pm)

Post 7

Monday, January 3, 2005 - 12:32pm

I didn't think about the Transformers, since they are not human, but robots in disguise...but there is a story there that resonates with Objectivism, in my theory...
The reason/emotion dichotomy is a major part of the story in the original comics (not the cartoon.) The Autobots (the good guys) represent reason and order, and the Decepticons (the bad guys) represent emotion and change. In the first issue, we see Megatron's motivation for war revealed as his disdain for the peaceful society as stagnant and non-evolving. He represents the suppressed emotions that force their way into reality...very Freudian...anyway...the battle comes to Earth in prehistoric times, and the Transformerers crash into a volcano in Oregon, lying dormant for a million years, until they are revived in the 80's. Their interactions with humanity reveal a similar struggle with the dichotomy, as demonstrated in the relation of two particular humans, "Sparkplug" Witwicky, an automobile mechanic, and his son, Buster. Sparkplug wants his son to take up the trade, learn mechanics(i.e. reason and order) and learn a practical skill. Buster, to his father's dismay, has his nose in the books, studying poetry, the humanities, etc., and is a dreamer. Through their adventures with the Transformers, they realize that it is a false dichotomy, and their reconciliation represents the integration Rand wrote about.
Their is a parallel with the robots with the battle between Shockwave and the Dinobots. Shockwave is a Decepticon leader who usurps Megatron's position. Megatron is primal and emotional, Shockwave cold and calculating, a Mr. Spock type without the humanity. He is challenged by the Dinobots, who were created a million years ago with the initial crash into Earth and modeled after the dinosaurs of the time. So you have the ultimate in logic and reason fighting the embodiment of the most primal monsters.
Even the designs capture this. Shockwave is drawn as having no face, a single eye, cold and emotionless. Megatron is drawn as having a human like face capable of showing emotion, mostly anger and hate. Optimus Prime is in the middle, having eyes, but no mouth, instead having a shield like jaw. Indeed, Optimus's struggle is with once being a more human like robot who is enhanced through science, and turned into a military leader. His struggle is to balance the cold calculating requirements of being a military leader with his belief that freedom is the right of all sentient beings. Whereas Megatron is said to have no known weaknesses, because of his combination of military might with superior technology and no consciounce, Optimus Prime's weakness is said to be his caring..."he could be a more powerful leader if he put his compassion aside, but then he wouldn't be Optimus Prime!" Megatron is Gail Wynand, the Nietszchean Superman evolved into robot, Prime is the embodiment of reason at the service of humanity.

(Edited by Joe Maurone on 1/03, 12:33pm)

Post 8

Wednesday, January 5, 2005 - 12:17pm

I chose Batman cause he is mortal and became a super-hero by his own efforts and not by mutation or by being bitten by a spider. He just trained his body as best he could. His personality seems a little bit more split than other super heros' but I like that he is a hard working business man with culture as well as a fighter for justice.
But I also admit that I don't know The Question/Mr.A and Cyrus Harding and only vaguely remember The Fantastic Four and Captain America.
Also I must admit that I always thought Bruce Wayne to be rather yummie ;o)

Post 9

Wednesday, January 5, 2005 - 8:56pm

For those of you who know the name, I am sad to report that Will Eisner, creator of THE SPIRIT, and a major influence in the comics medium, died today.
(Edited by Joe Maurone on 1/05, 8:57pm)

Post 10

Thursday, January 6, 2005 - 4:14pm

Joe,

I heard about Will Eisner's death yesterday. He was eighty-seven years old and continued to produce new and important comics work until the end. He was one of the most creative, intelligent and innovative cartoonists ever. I'm still working my way through DC's Spirit Archives reprinting his delightful Spirit stories from the forties and fifties. I will miss his new work greatly.

Post 11

Friday, January 7, 2005 - 10:02am

"the Transformerers crash into a volcano in Oregon, lying dormant for a million years, until they are revived in the 80's."

Hmm, where have I heard that crashing into a volcano millions of years ago thing before... oh yeah, Scientology! Early 80's, wasnt that about the time that L. Ron was coming up with that nonsense? Coincidence, hmm...

Anyway, I voted for Batman hands down, he is a completely self made man, all of his actions are motivated by a purpose he has chosen. He is often presented in the comics (and often in the animated series) as pretty much undefeatable because of his intellect. I think Miller's Dark Knight returns 2 had a scene where Superman admitted Bruce would always be able to beat him. Superman was always kind of a big dumb jock, primarily motivated by his gut reaction to injustices. While admirable, he never is portrayed as thinking clearly about what motivates his actions. Superman and Spiderman (especially in the latest implementations) are usually presented as finding their powers as a burden and their heroism as a duty. Bruce Wayne has a clear cut goal, to get rid of crime, and does what he wants to stop it, everything Batman does is a result of Wayne's highest motivations. He chooses to be a superhero, everyone else feels obliged to because of their powers.

The Batman movies of course were terrible, but the new one coming out looks promising.

Michael

Post 12

Friday, January 7, 2005 - 4:52pm

asterix because he used his cunning to save himself and his village from the roman dictatorship. Confirming the premise that good/intelligence can triumph over impotent evil, and all the other heroes are selflessly saving the world

Post 13

Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 9:35am

Joe,

I've been thinking about your question of whether Stan Lee or Steve Ditko came up with the line, "With great power comes great responsibility!" I have thought about this myself previously and I have given it more thought since your post. My conclusion is it most probably was Lee. I say this because, in the past when Lee has inaccurately taken credit for something Ditko came up with, Ditko has not been shy about correcting him. To my knowledge Ditko has never corrected Lee for taking credit for this line, hence, my conclusion. Of course, this is speculation on my part but that's how I'd place my bet.

Post 14

Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 10:31am

Thanks, Bob. I get what you're saying; I've read Ditko's take on the creation of Spiderman, and think that you are probably right. If Ditko did pen the phrase, we would know it!
thanks, Joe.

Post 15

Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 9:48am

I really think that Batman is the best choice on the list for libertarians and Objectivists. He does what he does for his own reasons, and he respects the rights of others who do no harm. Of course, I speak of the Batman of the Dark Knight persuasion, and not the 'joke' Batman of the old TV series starring Adam West.

I don't think highly of Robin, though. To use one of Rand's terms, to me, the guy just seemed like a second hander, a me-too sort of superhero, and certainly not a role model in my eyes.

Great idea for a poll, says I.

Ron Tobin
Philosophers Guild

Post 16

Saturday, January 8, 2005 - 11:56pm