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Monday, July 26, 2004 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
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Should that read '...mere accuracy', not '...more accuracy...'?

Surely accuracy and precision are synonyms??


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Post 1

Monday, July 26, 2004 - 11:17pmSanction this postReply
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Precision and accuracy are not exactly synonyms. To use a bullseye target example, if you hit dead center with every shot, your aim is both precise and accurate [assuming, of course, you are trying to hit the center]. If you hit the same spot everytime, but that spot is not the intended target, your aim is precise, but not accurate. If you hit different spots in the middle of the target, then your aim is accurate, but not necessarily precise.

You could also consider precision and accuracy as reliability and validity.


Post 2

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 8:58amSanction this postReply
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Jonathon, thanks for pointing out redundancy (now edited).

Stephen, thanks for clarification of exactly what it is that I'm saying when I say things like precision and accuracy.

One may also think of precision as "internal consistency" (or noncontradiction) and accuracy as "external validity" (or having veridical reference to reality).

Ed

Post 3

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 8:16amSanction this postReply
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I am troubled by the implications of this quote. Would a series of 'wrong ideas' that just so happen to 'average out' (however one would do that) to be 'correct' be just as good as a single well reasoned, but wrong one?

To me, the terms precise and accurate to some extent imply repeated measures against a known goal. If you all ready 'know' the Truth, then why would you assert any other position? If you do not (or can not) know an objective truth, how could you measure how close/far you are from it? I am not seeing how these terms apply to philosophy.

Perhaps the essence of what is being said here is that we don't often need 'high-faluting' language to get across the rough concept of something... it can prematurely turn people off of your idea. I find this to be the case when discussing philosophy with folks. If I lead off with "I am a rational egoist who believes that..qua...metaphysics...epistemology...", I get a glazed over eyes look. However, if I start off with "I believe that people should be in charge of their own lives..." and 'spiral-in on' more and more details as they appear to want them I get a much better reception. 


Post 4

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 10:49amSanction this postReply
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Jason,

In the book "The Ideas of Ayn Rand" the author (Ronald Merrill) has a section entitled "Epistemology in Practice."

In this section, he outlines a dilemma of choosing between 2 theories: one is entirely internally consistent, but contradicts some known facts; and the other has some internal inconsistency, but is consistent with all the facts.

This clever author never gives the solution to this dilemma!

I was initially appalled by this (after bringing me so far into the issue of practical epistemology, he then brought me to a philosophical "fork in the road" and dared me to choose!).

In his own words: "The solution is left as an exercise for the reader."

If the quote still troubles you, then replace precision with "reliability" and accuracy with "validity."

After you've done this, remind yourself of how much linguistic analysts have exerted themselves chasing absolutely precise meanings of words, both in and out of contexts that have, or fail to have, meaning for humans living on earth. Also, remind yourself of how much rationalists such as Hegel have created grand and internally consistent castles in the sky, postulating things like the State is God, etc.

Ed

Post 5

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 1:21pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

As usual I found your quote and subsequent posts to be illuminating if not a bit challenging.  Nevertheless, I enjoy it when someone non-coercively tightens the screws a bit on that muscle/organ which resides between my ears. 

In any event, I was hoping that you might confirm for me, and I do apologize in advance if I am bloodying the horse a tad bit more, that given Merril's two competing theories, the latter is the preferred alternative.  Secondly, when I first read this section in Merril's book several months ago the immediate thing that came to my mind was a discussion I heard not to long ago regarding Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.  From my perspective, it seems that your quote and the discussion about precision/accuracy (not entirely confined to this thread alone) and Merril's competing theories all stem from and/or are related to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.  Would you not agree, or am I somewhat off base here in trying to find commonality between all of the above?

Matt


Post 6

Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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Matt,

As usual I found your quote and subsequent posts to be illuminating if not a bit challenging.  Nevertheless, I enjoy it when someone non-coercively tightens the screws a bit on that muscle/organ which resides between my ears. 

Thanks Matt, I enjoy it too (organs respond to necessity; to build up an organ, increase its necessity)!


 

In any event, I was hoping that you might confirm for me, and I do apologize in advance if I am bloodying the horse a tad bit more, that given Merril's two competing theories, the latter is the preferred alternative. 

Confirmed.

 

 

Secondly, when I first read this section in Merril's book several months ago the immediate thing that came to my mind was a discussion I heard not to long ago regarding Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.  From my perspective, it seems that your quote and the discussion about precision/accuracy (not entirely confined to this thread alone) and Merril's competing theories all stem from and/or are related to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.  Would you not agree, or am I somewhat off base here in trying to find commonality between all of the above?

Matt, I hadn’t explicitly made the mental connection, but it sounds intriguing!  I will mentally wrestle with this and respond to it soon.  Here’s some initial thoughts (out loud):

 

Let me see … Godel’s Incompleteness?… hey, wasn’t that the “you can’t merely use a set of axioms to pre-determine truth-value for all possible propositions” theorem? … yeah … I think that’s the gist of it (readers – who may have got the gist even more than my final statement displays- are welcome to respond with further insight).

 

Ed


Post 7

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 9:33amSanction this postReply
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Matt,

You were right about Godel's Incompleteness Theorem. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem attempts to discredit the practice of deducing knowledge, rationalistic-style, from a set of axioms. The 2 relevant questions to ask are:

1) Did it work (did he really do this)?
and
2) Does it matter (are there epistemic implications)?

Notice how the critical notion here is whether axioms are that FROM WHICH knowledge is acquired (ie. deduced FROM axioms) or that BY WHICH knowledge is acquired (ie. experience, when collected and examined against the background context of axioms, leads to incorrigable knowledge). This also brings up notions such as "analytical" and "a priori."

The interesting thing (perhaps even an "open secret"?) about the concepts "analytical" and "a priori" is that they are agent-relative (agent = a thinker; a thinking agent).

A thinking agent such as myself does not wrestle with the conundrum of reconciling how both the Morning Star and the Evening Star are both the self-same star: the planet Venus.

Another way to say this is that the fact that these 2 different observations (of a star in the sky) have always and only been observations of the self-same star in different contexts (at different times), has already been integrated into my growing body of personal knowledge. HOWEVER, for the initial observers (initially researching these "two" stars), ADDITIONAL EXPERIENCE leading to the formation of synthetic, a posteriori statements was required to GAIN THE KNOWLEDGE of "self-sameness" or "identity" between these 2 different observations in the sky.

So, it appears that experience of the world is an "a priori" (pardon the pun) necessity before a thinking agent can have knowledge of any kind.

But once that knowledge exists (in their mind) - ie. they have discovered and validated varius relations between identities (of entities) - many things (indeed, ALL known facts!) which were previously a posteriori (for that thinking agent) BECOME a priori for that thinking agent (ie. new knowledge is no longer needed to state that "a thing is what it is" - in relation to other known things - and also, that "it has exhibited the behavior that it has" - again, in relation to other known things).

So Godel's Incompleteness knocks down a straw-man (as human knowledge is not something that is deduced, rationalistic-style from axioms, in the first place). However, an explanation is in order to shed light on Godel-type proofs (to explain why sentences such as "This sentence doesn't exist" are still so problematic to "some" thinkers).

The short explanation is that the "stumped thinkers" have always and only examined these sentences in an "agent-free" context. But sentences are not meant to be examined as such (sentences are statements OF agents ABOUT existence). Think about this once.

Think about yourself (a thinking agent) actually reading the sentence: "This sentence doesn't exist." Do you have a "problem" knowing whether or not the sentence is true or false? No, you have no problem with this. Therefore, incompleteness is totally irrelevant to your growing body of knowledge (you DO know the things that you know, and you WILL know much more - if you keep your eyes open and your axioms in mind).

Devastating recap: Godel is a precision-junkie who "forgot" about accuracy as it applies to human knowledge.

Thanks for spotting (and conveying) the connection, Matt!

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/28, 9:36am)


Post 8

Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 1:35pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

First and foremost, thank you for sharing your thoughts and ideas about Godel's Incompleteness Theorem and how it relates to the accuracy/precision discussion.  As the screws continue to be rotated, you have certainly (sorry about the pun) provided me with quite a bit more to chew on.

I have a polite request though.  I know from other threads that you have started the Unofficial and Unabridged Ed Thompson Philosophical Dictionary, which I have found to be greatly useful especially in trying to follow and understand the dialogue and discussion on these other threads.  May I suggest that you consider adding the following concepts to this dictionary of yours:

=> analytical, a priori, synthetic, a posteriori?

While I definitely will need more time to fully digest your most recent post, I do want to ask you a quick question.  Is it mistaken to equate the following:

INTERNALLY CONSISTENT (in this case I think within a given context, or system [e.g., human knowledge]) = ACCURACY (validity)

and

COMPLETENESS = PRECISION (reliability)?

I might be way off base here, but this was the general impression I received from your most recent post, as well as the overall tone and flavor of the discussion thus far.

Thanks,
Matt


Post 9

Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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Matt:
"May I suggest that you consider adding the following concepts to this dictionary of yours:
=> analytical, a priori, synthetic, a posteriori?"

Ed:
Oh yes, most certainly! I hadn't added these yet, but I now promise not to pass over these terms! I'm really only shooting for a couple of hundred (perhaps a thousand) terms, with the focus on those terms which have given - and are giving - philosophers the most trouble (but suggestions are ALWAYS welcome!). Thanks for your suggestion, Matt!


Matt:
Is it mistaken to equate the following:
INTERNALLY CONSISTENT (in this case I think within a given context, or system [e.g., human knowledge]) = ACCURACY (validity)
and
COMPLETENESS = PRECISION (reliability)?

Ed:
Yes Matt, it is mistaken to equate the above. Before I explain why, here's another principle that helps to further distinguish these two (often-antagonistic) concepts:

"The context dictates the level of precision that is required for making claims which are fully (100%) accurate."

Also, and more directly, I beseech you to look upon internal consistency as something requiring some kind of outside help before it is judged as having value for humans (it cannot produce any meaningful results on its own); ie. internal consistency requires external validity to be used productively by humans. The one exception where internal consistency can stand on its own and produce value for humans is as a "mental exercise" such as is found in geometry textbooks where the students have to work in order to prove or validate axioms, propositions, etc.

Most definitively, you have (above) isolated and abstracted human knowledge apart or away from how it was gained (apart from thinking agents). Your "system" above is agent-free and this is the straw that breaks the camel's back (just as it did with Godel). Agents have to have new facts integrated into their growing body of "old" facts, but integration must never supercede or supervene over the "fact-hood" or "fact-ness" of the new sensory-perceptual experiences. Otherwise, you're rewriting reality to fit in with your initial notions (maintaining internal consistency AT THE COST of external validity).

Ed

Post 10

Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 4:29amSanction this postReply
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I attended the same presentation that Matt Ashby did regarding Godel's Theorem.  (Hi Matt!)  The presentation was by Martin Moorman.  Martin has both a strong scientific and strong Objectivist background.  He explained it so that I could understand it, which is a major feat since my mathematical knowledge is not that great.  Based on Martin's presentation I do not consider Godel's Theorem to present a philosophical problem at all. 

In short, Godel's Theorem proved that it is impossible to construct a system of mathematical logic which is both complete and accurate.  There is no statement made about logic in philosophy.  Some opponents of logic based philosophical systems have attempted to argue that Godel refutes logic in philosophy.  That is context dropping.

BTW Godel's work came out when Bertrand Russell's magnum opus Principia Mathematica was just completed and at the printer's.  Godel basically refuted Russell who had spent years on this work.   No wonder old Bertrand became a sour old man.

Bill Perry


Post 11

Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you Ed.  With the information that you shared in your previous post (#9), especially the last two paragraphs, things are now starting to fall into place for me.  Once I process this new information a little more I would like to focus my attention on applying it to the debate of whether or not Objectivism is an open or closed system.  Granted there has already been some discussion on this topic, and it certainly depends on how one defines Objectivism (e.g. is it solely the philosophy and writing of Ayn Rand?, etc.). 

If I consider what you wrote in post #9...

[Ed writes:] Also, and more directly, I beseech you to look upon internal consistency as something requiring some kind of outside help before it is judged as having value for humans (it cannot produce any meaningful results on its own); ie. internal consistency requires external validity to be used productively by humans. The one exception where internal consistency can stand on its own and produce value for humans is as a "mental exercise" such as is found in geometry textbooks where the students have to work in order to prove or validate axioms, propositions, etc.

...in my opinion I am inclined to think that Objectivism is and can only be an open system since foundationally it is so heavily composed of and places a large emphasis on metaphysics (i.e., reality/existence) and the axioms/corollaries of identification and non-contradiction, etc.  Most likely I am simplifying things a great deal here, yet this is my initial take on the matter.

In any event, thanks again for your thoughts and insight.

Matt


Post 12

Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 7:29pmSanction this postReply
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Matt, overall I agree with you that Objectivism isn't a closed system.  But this is not to say that it's open - at least not in the strong sense of the word.  I'd argue that some self-acclaimed O-ists (perhaps 5% of those to which I've been exposed) are not objectively objectivist.  Regardless of their proclamations, they are not BEING an objectivist "in front of my eyes."

Objectivism strikes me as a system of immutable method, not a system of immutable content.  I will present a rough outline of my thoughts below (a 3-tier method; governed by objectivity):

The wellspring governing the unique type of method Objectivism champions is the ideal of objectivity.  The immediate (though technically: "second-tier" to the objectivity ideal) products are the objectivist principles.  While these first 2 tiers are the same for everyone, always and everywhere, divergence occurs at tier #3.

The third tier involves the individual application of the O-ist principles and it is here where culmination of varied lifestyle - instead of a regress to the herd mentality - gets its genesis.  This third tier is also the easiest to find error in (though most error will ultimately be traceable to original error in the first 2 tiers). 

The common errors found in the 3rd tier (but mostly traceable to original errors in the first two tiers) will most likely be errors of individual interpretation (first two tiers), not errors of individual application (third tier).  This concludes my rough outline of what it means to be an Objectivist in this world.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/29, 7:31pm)


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