RoR: Forum

The above quote struck me as apropos of this discussion, since it highlights the shift in attitude between living for the divine/hereafter and living for oneself that many who do the former seem unable -- or unwilling -- to fathom (choosing instead to believe that an atheistic life would be pointless and brutal).

Post 1

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 10:39am

Good quote. I like Whedon's work and Tim Minear has written some of my favorite episodes of various shows.

I fail to see why people get so worked up over a justification to live. Since when do we need permission to live for ourselves?

Post 2

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 1:14pm

Sarah said:

I fail to see why people get so worked up over a justification to live. Since when do we need permission to live for ourselves?

Sadly, since the people who want us to live for them have taken philosophical control of the world and convinced the mass populace that living for yourself is wrong but living for others is a virtue. It will take a long time to undo their work.

I always find it so amusing that an objectivists who would say "live your life for yourself" are called selfish, while those telling everyone else to live for them are called virtuous. We are selfish because we wont live our lives for them!! Spirit murdering bastards!

Unfortunately, as is evident in this thread many soloists still feel like life must be justified for some reason.

Michael

Post 3

Thursday, June 9, 2005 - 2:50pm

Sadly, since the people who want us to live for them...

I understand that, but why do such issues pop up among objectivists of all people? Furthermore, why is there even a fight about it? Just live dammit, and live well.

Post 4

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 5:48am

Live you say? Such empty assertions!

I fail to see why people get so worked up over a justification to live. Since when do we need permission to live for ourselves?

I understand that, but why do such issues pop up among objectivists of all people? Furthermore, why is there even a fight about it? Just live dammit, and live well.

Unfortunately, as is evident in this thread many soloists still feel like life must be justified for some reason.

What is it that you two think makes this matter somehow enchanted that it is untouchable by reason? For an ethics predicated on living surely life must not go unjustified?

If I keep asking "why" I regress back through science, through politics, though morality, through metaphysics. "Why? Why? Why...?"

"Because the mind must be free."

"Why?"

"Because it is a moral function to think."

"Why?"

"In order to live."

"Why?"

"In...because...ah.....what you have to understand is....umm...Just live dammit, and live well."

Sarah, Michael,- why?

Post 5

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 7:39am

"Why" is a horrible question (because of that regress you mentioned). I know it, but I still use it. Perhaps I should have asked, how is that such topics are disagreed on between people who share so many fundamental principles? The whole thing reeks of mental masturbation.

Post 6

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 9:07am

pssssssssssssssssssssst rick

To show gratitude for the horrible lives ALL those who came before us endured; so that we have the luxury to ponder such things.

Imagine tracing your personal geneology to about 20,000 years ago. It's an awesome thought, to personalize all those ancestors; but they're all there, aren't they?

They, are the ones who are worthy of worship. I have tears in my eyes; just thinking of them.

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhharon
(Edited by Sharon Romagnoli Macdonald on 6/20, 10:17am)

Post 7

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 9:19am

I go to church, and I think that all the people that waste their time here obsessing on an afterlife are not only missing the boat, but being unmindful of the gift of life.
Like Jospeph Campbell said, "the real action is going on here." A lot of these people are also looking for Big Miracles, and meanwhile everything they are surrounded with is miraculous. Living right, living now, and enjoying it completely is not an abstract thing.

Post 8

Monday, June 20, 2005 - 10:16pm

Just live dammit, and live well."

Sarah, Michael,- why?

pssssssssssssssssssssst rick

That's Rick with a capital Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

To show gratitude for the horrible lives ALL those who came before us endured;
Imagine tracing your personal geneology
They, are the ones who are worthy of worship. I have tears in my eyes; just thinking of them.

You do? What a marvellous feat of reconciling imagination. But this is hardly a serious answer is it? It is a partial answer at best Sharon. Man should live for his own sake, not for the sake of being grateful to others.

"Why" is a horrible question (because of that regress you mentioned).

How backward. To me the question is the most sacred and respectable of things, especially 'why' which is greatest of all and through which we may endure any horror.

Perhaps I should have asked, how is that such topics are disagreed on between people who share so many fundamental principles?

Ah, well if that's all you're hung about then I have no bone to pick with you. Let others explicate insanity, however...

The whole thing reeks of mental masturbation.

No it doesn't Sarah. And if you think that then I think it would be nice for you to say what it is that you think makes this matter somehow enchanted that it is untouchable by reason? For an Objectivist ethics, predicated on living, surely life must not go unjustified?

I really don't see how anybody can refuse nihilism unless they can come up with a better response than your 'just live damnit'. "Just because" is not gonna cut mustard, it certainly isn't strong enough to build Objectivism upon.

Post 9

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 12:41pm

Rick,

The question of why to live is a question only you can answer. It's a pre-moral choice that can not be argued for or against by others. It's your choice. It's a choice you make every day and that underlies every thought and action you make. Choose.

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 6/21, 12:43pm)

Post 10

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 6:54pm

Hoy Ethan. I've been reading you, you're a good guy.

The question of why to live is a question only you can answer. It's a pre-moral choice that can not be argued for or against by others. It's your choice. It's a choice you make every day and that underlies every thought and action you make. Choose.

Metaphysical quesiton to be sure, and one on which our system takes for its basis. It is the ground we stand on.

That is why I'm surprised and would like to see Sarah and Michael answer for their assertion. It's subjectivism. It's solipsisim. You too make the assertion so I offer you the same inquiry. What it is that you think makes this matter somehow enchanted that it is untouchable by reason?

Surely life must not go unjustified? Surely you don't mean your above assertion to be accepted because of its good cadence? Shirley, what you say reminds me of a book I read.

Trainspotting, Choose your Life - Trainspotting

Trainspotting, Choose your Life - Trainspotting

Is that up to your high standards? I find it wanting Ethan. Show me the way.

Rick Out

Post 11

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 7:33pm

Hello Rick,

Not all of that is crap. Some is sensible. Fixed rate mortgages are ok. Choose your friends, DIY. Some good stuff. Personally, I've never spawned any brats. Even the crap is a step above non-existence. There's always the possibility of enlightenment after enough crap. Or don't you think so? I had a karate teacher once who said "Be your own hero! Don't sit around on sunday watching the superbowl, go out and set a personal record for yourself." Then he'd punch us in the stomach to test our Ki-AIIIIiiiii!. Fun stuff. We are our own creation, and it can be fun. I'm not going to check out any sooner than I have to.

Post 12

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:02pm

What it is that you think makes this matter somehow enchanted that it is untouchable by reason?

I never said anything about being untouchable by reason. I simply said that I don't need to justify my life to you. All the time spent trying to convince you why I should live is time I could've spent living.

Post 13

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 8:18pm

Yo,
Not all of that is crap. Some is sensible

And with great cadence too. But if you read with more care you'll see that nobody is saying otherwise.

What I'm saying is that Sarah, Michael and Ethan are pretty much using this here movie poster as the substratum of Objectivism and it's making me curious.

There's always the possibility of enlightenment after enough crap. Or don't you think so?

I've yet to learn of anybody with stronger belief in redemption than I. So, yes.

Then he'd punch us in the stomach to test our Ki-AIIIIiiiii!. Fun stuff.

Sounds like a son of a bitch! If Mr Miyagi did that to me I'd break his chopsticks!

I never said anything about being untouchable by reason. I simply said that I don't need to justify my life to you. All the time spent trying to convince you why I should live is time I could've spent living.

So when you make these assertions you're clinically dead at the time? That lets you off the hook.
What about the other two amigos? Michael and Ethan, can you live and answer at the same time or are you with her?

(Edited by Rick Giles on 6/21, 8:44pm)

Post 14

Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 9:04pm

Now you're just being difficult.

Post 15

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 6:50am

Rick said:

What I'm saying is that Sarah, Michael and Ethan

I'd kindly like to point out that I'm in no way responsing to the quote and prior discussion in this thread when I posted to you. I was simply responding to you never-ending "whys." My point had only to do with the choice between life and death, and how it could not be answered by anyone other than yourself.

Ethan

Post 16

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 6:28pm

And another one's gone, another one's gone, another one bites the dust...

My point had only to do with the choice between life and death, and how it could not be answered by anyone other than yourself.

Hence throwing your lot in with the other two. But as you please, you're off the hook too.

But where's Michael Dickey? You gonna run for cover like the other two trainspotters? Or are you too going to paste the Nike logo as though it were a syllogism?

Post 17

Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 7:46pm

Gosh, thanks for letting me off the hook. Not that I was ever on the hook, but I.....oh never mind.

Ethan

Post 18

Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 1:10am

Rick,

I agree with you: why is a good, and perhaps the best, question.

For your information, my view on the why is detailed in these posts of this thread about evolution.

In post #75 of that thread I wrote:

"Then, today you [Dean Michael Gores] think that life and the universe are without an ultimate purpose.

"That was precisely the issue that bothered me when I was an Atheist. I solved it that way: for everything to really make sense, for �consistency & symmetry� of it all, if you prefer, there must be a Creator that created everything purposefully. Then, that's really not a problem for humans because we are endowed with the capability of free will. And then I though that to be a Theist makes more sense of it all than to be an Atheist."

The children ask it "why" constantly. They don't accept to live like chickens without head.

Best wishes,

Joel Catal�

(Edited by Joel Catal� on 6/23, 1:20am)

Post 19

Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 2:52am