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Post 20

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
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"Perhaps Hong just likes just those words in some way that has meaning for her and that isn't apparent to me."

I don't know why this is so hard to get. The bachelors in the excerpt from the book are a parody of some of the male posters on RoR. It is ironic that many of the parents who used to post on RoR no longer do so. In my view Hong's quote reflects that irony.

I appreciate this discussion and the other one on Tolstoy because I haven't read Tolstoy and I now intend to.

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Post 21

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Mike. There are numerous witty remarks in Tolstoy books which make the reading highly enjoyable. At least to me.

The reason I like this quote very much is because of its unabashed and unapologetic attitude toward one's chosen life style. I had thought that many male posters here should be happy to read it. ;-). Well, at least George Cordero did. :-)

 

Of course, the obvious untruth of it indicates that no justification is ever needed for having or not having children. The important thing is to make the most of one's life and be able to be proud of it.



Post 22

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 12:34pmSanction this postReply
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I have to take issue with this:
 Considering child rearing is the most important task one can take upon
Um, what?  Why?  Is that a subjective value preference or is there going to be some evidence or an argument to back that up?  Because I can just say "no, it's not".  Claiming something is "THE MOST IMPORTANT" whatever is a pretty big statement.  I mean, are you claiming that those of us who choose not to have children are somehow engaging in things less important?  Because that's a slap in the face to say, oh, I don't know, a certain childless Russian philosopher I could name.
 If I had had STD as a father, I'd have opted for abortion as a fetus myself, as sure as he'd've aborted me
You're damn skippy.


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Post 23

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 8:46pmSanction this postReply
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Um, what? Why? Is that a subjective value preference or is there going to be some evidence or an argument to back that up? Because I can just say "no, it's not".

--

The fact that without someone to properly raise you, including proper food, clothing, medicine, and *education* you probably would have wound up differently, and sub-optimal for your capacities. If you think this is subjective, tell that to every child that is neglected, abused, and so on. That in itself is not a plead to emotion, rather it's a plead to reason, in that if you suppose that child rearing is unimportant, then it follows that you think civilization is unimportant, because all civilization hinges upon the ability of adult humans to raise their progeny to the age that they too can raise their own, and it takes a fracking lot more than just squeezing one out after nine months and five minutes in the back of a Buick. It takes a hell of a lot more effort than you think.

I've helped my sister in the raising of her first child, and I can tell you it's work and a half. You have to be patient, caring, and able to discipline; not necessarily all at once, but necessarily within the daily routine. And then you got other things to consider, how you act around that child outside of being a parent, because rearing the child is two parts: maintenance and teaching by example. The former is fairly automatic, but it still takes reasoning to follow it through consistently, and the same for the latter. Both become interdependent skills, in that doing one requires the other. You can't be a good parent if you are not a good person. You can't raise a child to be healthy physically and mentally if you yourself are not either.

So, is that subjective? By what principle do you derive such a incredulous claim? I think you owe me and all the other people here who have children in their lives an damn good explanation, buck-o.

-- Brede

Post 24

Wednesday, May 9, 2007 - 10:15pmSanction this postReply
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Bridget - it's the "frozen concept" again. 'I'm here. I'm an adult. What does that have to do with children?' It's the anti-conceptual mentality. We are each of us a four-dimensional being in spacetime. Most people can't think that way. For them it's: Me! Here! This! Now! Oops!

Ted

Post 25

Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 6:07amSanction this postReply
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Bridget,
Important to whom?


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Post 26

Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:20amSanction this postReply
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I don't owe an explanation, M. Armozel; you claimed that raising children is "the most important task", like, EVAR!, and I said it wasn't.  I won't be called sub-optimal because you claim it is, either.  The argument would logically follow that:

"Raising children is the most important thing a human can do"
"You aren't raising children"
"Therefore, what you're doing can't be as important as what I am doing (raising kids)"

You can feel that way if you want, but it's an emotion-based, subjective call, whether you like it.  You think raising kids is important, I don't.  But I don't think there's going to be an argument over tastes that's going to get us anywhere.

Ted, just because one person made a choice doesn't mean I have to make the same one.  I am appreciative to my parents for what they did for me.  That doesn't mean I have to turn about and raise children for "society", or "civilization", or whatever.  I'll do it because I want to, and for no other reason. I don't give a damn about civilization, or society, or whatever.  I care about me, and my values.


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Post 27

Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:39amSanction this postReply
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Can we agree that raising children is extremely important in the sense that if you choose to do it then you must do it right, but not in the sense that you must choose to do it? The word "important" has two senses, I think that's all this dispute is about.
(Edited by Jeremy B
on 5/10, 9:06am)


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Post 28

Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 1:48pmSanction this postReply
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You can feel that way if you want, but it's an emotion-based, subjective call, whether you like it. You think raising kids is important, I don't. But I don't think there's going to be an argument over tastes that's going to get us anywhere.

--

Um, it's not a matter of tastes, it's a fact of reality. No one raising kids or having kids means no more humans, no more civilization after a point and so on. So, unless you're a robot, I think you'll recognize it is the important thing one can do, it doesn't mean you have to procreate, but you do have the option to raise kids, directly or indirectly. In the end, even your selfish actions add to the environment of children in your region, and even the world. Whether it's your own selfish wish to create a better set of software tools, that some of those kids will use later on to make better software tools. Or whether it's your selfish need to work to make more money, and thus spend more money to sustain your life, you are probably directly or indirectly paying a parent or someone who raises kids so they can continue in their effort. In essence, you are raising kids whether you know it or not. Unless you live in a cave, you're helping them. ;)

So please, don't assume you're in a vacuum, you're part of a world, some parts you don't even know exist at present, but you still have an effect on.

-- Brede
(Edited by Bridget Armozel
on 5/10, 1:52pm)


Post 29

Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 8:28pmSanction this postReply
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Jeremy B, of whom are you asking that question? Your care-free, happy-go-lucky, let-only-him-who-will stance on reproduction is utterly, horribly wrong. It's quite obvious that only mandatory parenthood, whether voluntary, through gang rape, or via forcible artificial insemination, is compatible with life as the standard of morality. Bridget and I envision an ideal world where sex means only heterosexual attempts at conception. How could you possibly expect "us" to agree with your suggested compromise?

Ted Keer


Post 30

Friday, May 11, 2007 - 12:40amSanction this postReply
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Your care-free, happy-go-lucky, let-only-him-who-will stance

Or to put it less poetically, "laissez faire".

It's quite obvious that only mandatory parenthood, whether voluntary, through gang rape, or via forcible artificial insemination, is compatible with life as the standard of morality.

Indeed! However, if life is your standard of morality in this sense, you would also approve of, say, the killing of one person in order to provide organs to save the lives of two. I suspect you don't. (Some people do, but given that this is the exemplar of Ayn Rand's definition of "altruism", I doubt anyone here does.)

How could you possibly expect "us" to agree with your suggested compromise?

It wasn't a compromise. I was pointing out an ambiguity in the word "important" which may have been the root of the argument. Perhaps it wasn't, which is why the post was in the form of a question.

Post 31

Friday, May 11, 2007 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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Woo, this has turned from bad to worse as a discussion goes. But seriously, my point was that we all started out as kids, someone had to give birth to us, and someone had to rear us, giving us the foundation by which we derived our present conclusions about existence. In essence, my point is that we all raise kids in some fashion or another, and that civilization is that framework for it. If it wasn't, then why do kids in more advanced civilizations live better and become better [in respect to education and civility]? By this reasoning even childless Ayn Rand raised kids, her ideas probably have influenced more youngin's than anyone else, probably more than those doped up rockstars (by far!). And why do I say that? Because you don't see the stoner kids grow up to be computer scientists, businessmen, or artists. It seems to me, Rand would have been a great mom by evidence of the fact of how her words inked on paper have a positive influence even on the young.

-- Brede

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Post 32

Friday, May 11, 2007 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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Even though this quote is wicked, there is something truthful in it.

Actually, I'd say that 99% of people belong to the categories of either "who can do nothing", or maybe "who can do just a little more than nothing", aside from making their own living. And be able to rear people is certainly a tangibly positive thing that they can do. There are a lot who have much less to show.

Then again, there was Tolstoy who wrote "War and Peace", "Anna Karenina", successfully managed his large estate and also reared a dozen kids.

If that hasn't make one feel inferior, there is also my department chairman, a famous scientist, member of National Academy of Sciences, co-founder of a prosperous biotech company, multimillionaire, and father of four....

Oh, well.

Post 33

Friday, May 11, 2007 - 2:57pmSanction this postReply
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Hong wrote: "If that hasn't make one feel inferior..."

Do you mean that literally or psychologically?

Guy


Post 34

Friday, May 11, 2007 - 3:39pmSanction this postReply
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I mean intellectually and perhaps physically. I guess that's pretty literal. Though I don't mean morally. 

Post 35

Friday, May 11, 2007 - 4:17pmSanction this postReply
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As perfect as anyone, morally speaking?


Post 36

Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 6:08amSanction this postReply
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I guess I don't know exactly what is "morally speaking". I can do English speaking or Chinese speaking. ;-)

Post 37

Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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Hong,

I was just leading up to your extravagant arrogance, in the sense that you are morally equal, if not superior too, Tolstoy and your Department Chairman!

Guy


Post 38

Monday, May 14, 2007 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
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But how would you know that I'm not morally equal, or even superior, to Tolstoy or my Department Chairman? ;-)

Post 39

Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 4:15pmSanction this postReply
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I don’t. But you did such a great job at extracting "morally" from the inferiority equation–that it could mean only one thing: they might have these other things over you but not morality.

BTW, I love extravagant arrogance, whether or not the subject knows it.

Guy


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