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Sunday, February 15, 2009 - 11:43amSanction this postReply
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It is critical that we never lose sight of the importance of habeus corpus, probable cause, the refusal to engage in torture and the need for process that supports innocent-till-proven-guilty. But, having said that, anyone that thinks there is any merit in freeing terrorists now in Guantanamo, or in ignoring the horrors of Iran going nuclear has no perspective. I can always tell when our country is in trouble... I just notice that both sides of the national debate are each as wrong as they are right.

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Sunday, February 15, 2009 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
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Iran is unlikely to give up their quest for nuclear weapon capability just by talk alone.

Strategically, if for no other reason, the notion of bringing these Guantanamo terrorists onto Continental US soil, is highly risky, and totally insane. It only serves to paint a highly visible target on the community unfortunate enough to host this group. Handing them over to the Saudis for "crayon' therapy is not going to rehabilitate them either.

jt
(Edited by Jay Abbott on 2/15, 1:23pm)


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Sunday, February 15, 2009 - 4:24pmSanction this postReply
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A person's strength of will and breadth of knowledge will have much to say about what he makes of his life.

And so it is for our nation. If we don't have the strength of will and the knowledge required to fight against our governments violations of individual rights and the terrorist's immanent threats, we will end up with neither rights nor safety.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 - 6:17pmSanction this postReply
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Steve Wolfer:
"[...] anyone that thinks there is any merit in freeing terrorists now in Guantanamo, or in ignoring the horrors of Iran going nuclear, has no perspective." (emphasis added)

That, unfortunately, is a classic use of the "'Argument' from Intimidation," especially that last phrase. (Rand was not the first to identify this fallacy, by any means, but she did choose a label for it that cuts to its essence.)

Presenting this viewpoint in such a manner is acting to evict those who supposedly think this from the perimeter of civilized debate. It's a tactic which, I am truly sorry to say, Thomas Sowell is engaging in more than he ever has, especially in demonizing his opponents on foreign policy.

As to the prisoners, the supposed "merit" here lies not in letting any such prisoners loose, but in keeping fidelity in practice to the principles of "habeus corpus, probable cause, the refusal to engage in torture and the need for process that supports innocent-till-proven-guilty." All of which have been blatantly violated in Guantanamo and the other offshore prisons, (formerly) secret and not.

It's precisely that these standards have not been upheld, even in the gathering of evidence and suspects for what is and ought to be a criminal — and not military — issue, that has resulted in the problem of a core of undoubted scumbags being kept. (Many hundreds of others have been released. Even those held for torture have to be fed, after all.)

A puzzle as to how to return the problematic core of them to any other country? Yes, but without charges and evidence being contemplated, they and others shouldn't have been captured and held in the first place. That's the root mistake.

And as to Iran, your evicting any questioners of the scope or existence of such "horrors" from the range of the debate already abandons the use of the same standards, of openly noted evidence and confirmation of actions, that you say are important.

I won't get into dissecting that yet again, though, because it accepts the assumption of the neocons that Iran is a threat to U.S. residents in U.S. territory. As distinct from threatening "our" military in imperial postings that should not exist, or governments living off money and materiel extorted from the American public.

This assumption is one of the supposedly obvious backstops to all such discussion, these days, on Objectivist-ish Websites.

For me, one can only roll the boulder of conceptual dissection up the hill of historical blindness so many times before one gets worn out. I'm not inclined to try again to do so here when I'm tagged as "having no perspective" worth reading — before my even joining the debate.

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Monday, February 16, 2009 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
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Steve R.,

Saying that a given position indicates a lack of perspective, is not an argument from intimidation. Perspective, or it's lack, can be an attribute of a person relative to a given position.

Did you ever see that cartoon of a ship's lifeboat that is sinking? The back half is down very low and the two fellows at that end are bailing like crazy. The bow is up in the air and the two fellows perched up there are just watching, one of them saying, "I'm glad our end isn't sinking." That fellow has a lack of perspective, and pointing it out to him wouldn't be an argument from intimidation.

Perspective is what is required to grasp that individual rights includes BOTH their protectors (no torture, probable cause, and habeous corpus) AND our safety from terrorists and rogue governments.

Rand's description of argument from intimidation is where someone is accused of immorality as a substitute for logic - NOT what I was doing. Were you trying to intimidate me? :-)



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Monday, February 16, 2009 - 8:53pmSanction this postReply
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Steve R.,

If Iran has a nuclear weapon, we are in danger. They support terrorists. They supply terrorists. They have declared us to be enemies. They are responsible for deaths of Americans in Iraq. Self-defense is the ONLY valid criteria for the use of military force, but that does not mean waiting until the weapon has been set off. I recognize the honesty of the arguments where someone differs with me in when self-defense kicks in. I don't have as much respect for arguments that the self-interest of terrorists, or of the rogue nations that supply them, or the rationality of those leaders is our protection.

The most horrible and least rational wars have been religious. There are so many different terrorist groups and several governments that willingly support those terrorists that have stated their intent to harm us. I have no doubt that eventually they will succeed with bacterial or nuclear weapons. It is a matter of the odds and of time. That doesn't relieve us of the moral requirement to only use force in self-defense, but when they have made clear their intent, then we only need to see that they have the means before we can demand that they disarm - we don't need to wait till the weapons are in the air.

As to some of your other points:
  • You said that no habeous corpus, no probable cause, torture, and no innocent-till-proven-guilty were all U.S. policy. Agreed, and that should have never been allowed.
  • You called for a civilian court. I disagree. What was needed was a proper set of military tribunal procedures to be followed with adequate oversight. Civil courts are for civilians within U.S. jurisdiction.
  • "...governments living off money and materiel extorted from the American public." I oppose all foreign aid, including military aid to foreign governments (except in times of war when we are aiding an ally). So I agree here, and I would not keep all of those military bases.




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Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 12:12pmSanction this postReply
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Steve
I agree with you. Iran should not be allowed to develop nuclear weapon capabilities.
I was born in Tehran Iran, and I am familiar with the mentality of the current regime. They would not hesitate to use nuclear weapon against the west or any non muslim country, mainly because they are interested to expert Islam and also to stabilize the Islamic Republic survival. Iran is interested to bring Islam religion by any means including war to the west. Some of European counties also make a good target for them including Isreal.
I think the best defense is a good offense. We can not afford to let them have a nuclear weapon at this time.

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