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Post 0

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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I think I really like this quote.

Post 1

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 8:12amSanction this postReply
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I don't get the "terrifying" part. What is so terrifying about living a life where you do not coerce others, where you try to relate to others based on cooperative voluntary exchanges that bring mutual benefit? It seems that approach brings inner peace, not terror.

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Post 2

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 9:33amSanction this postReply
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Simple question, Jim. What noun is the adjective "terrifying" modifying in the quote?

Post 3

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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Ted -- not getting your point. Why should simplicity be terrifying? Please explain.

Seems like poor choice of adjective, needlessly implying a negative connotation to something positive. Why not say "wonderful simplicity", thus painting following Objectivist principles in a positive light?

Good quote otherwise.

Post 4

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 12:47pmSanction this postReply
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What do you think the word "pricipals" means in this quote, Jim?

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Post 5

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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"Objectivism needs to be cut down to its roots and thoroughly re-evaluated and understood apart from all its principals, past and present."

By "roots" I assume the meaning is the most basic principles. A set of 4, 5, 6, or 7 bullet-points type of exposition.

And "apart from its principals, past and present" I assume to be a call to separate the philosophy from its advocates, including Rand.

"re-evaluated" implies a disagreement with some of the current evaluations by the principle principals.

The statement is a little bit vague as to what is "terrifying" about the "simplicity" (not enough guidance for those who need or want to be guided?)

If all (except for the "roots") that has been said and written by the principals is discarded, and the philosophy is chopped down to the barest of principles, then we are alone, or at least starting from scratch, in determining how to apply the basic principles to the complexity of all the details life presents for us to make choices on.

It is an intriguing statement, but I'm not sure it is very helpful. It leaves out much that would be needed to support it, or explain it, as well as what parts of Objectivism are most in need of "re-evaluating."

It is interesting that Brant uses it as an explanation why another poster should NOT attempt to be a calm bridge of reason between warring factions of Objectivism. It is like the message is, let them rain destruction till we are back at the roots, or ignore them all... we all must find our own way - there are no leaders here. But that is just my flight of fancy on what is intended.



Post 6

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 1:37pmSanction this postReply
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Doing Jim's homework for him? He'll end up the Keating to your Roark.

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Post 7

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
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Jim:

This isn't something that you analyze — either you get it or you don't. It's terrifying because everything else is so complicated, arcane and obscure. Objectivism is an alabaster wall emblazoned with "AisA" five storeys high while adjacent to it is a garbage dump of discarded newspapers and automobile tires, emblazoned with "Sacrifice." That's what "terrifyingly simple" means, in non-analytical terms.

Sam


Post 8

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 4:21pmSanction this postReply
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Sam's got it - Terrifying to realize how stupid and blind one has been to the absolutely obvious. Discovering one's own utter stupidity has certainly got to be a terrifying experience.

However, I don't think he meant principals, Steve. I think he intended "principles", from which I inferred he meant 'don't look ahead at all of the logical conclusion, and theory of Objectivism, just look at the simple, elegant logic of its roots" (to give one an appreciation -a measure - of the value of the plant). In essence, if people only try to understand the basis (simple epistemology) for Objectivism, which is easy to recognize, it will be easier to assimilate the complexities, greater truths, later.

: 0
: / : o
: (
: < : \

... have we over-analyzed it yet?

: )

jt

Post 9

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 4:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jay,

How would you understand Objectivism 'separate from principles'? That wouldn't make any sense to me.

And what are 'principles, past and present'? 'Past and present' doesn't go with principles of Objectivism.

And Brant, in that post, is advising a person about how to respond to warring factions - and it makes sense to refer to principals - leaders of the factions - in that context.

Well, at this point, I've clearly told you more than I know about this quote :-)

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Post 10

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 5:12pmSanction this postReply
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Okay, I give up.

The quote says exactly what it means. Principals here means principals, not priciples.

You do need to understand the wider context of conflicts between principals in the Objectivist movement to understand the quote. You can do so in part by reading this thread Simple Exercise (relevant posts begin 5/19 1:40) and this thread The Passion of James Valliant's Criticism which detail (1) the removal of references to James Valliant's book The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics: The Case Against the Brandens by Wikipedia from articles on Ayn Rand related articles as not reliable, (2) The banning of James Valiant himself and his household from editing Wikipedia articles, and (3) False accusations brought against Barbara Branden by Lindsay Perigo and others, and repeated by Leonard Peikoff, that she conspired to have Valliant's work removed or discredited. Peikoff ended up writing an embarrassing open letter to Jimmy Wales and asking on his website that Objectivists help him (LP) reverse Wikipedia policy regarding Valliant's book. I do not recommend that you read these threads.




Post 11

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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Doing Jim's homework for him? He'll end up the Keating to your Roark.

If by "homework" you mean "trying to understand Ted's vague questions", I'll just scroll down until I see some comments that make a discernable point.

Post 12

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 5:50pmSanction this postReply
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LOL

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Post 13

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 5:52pmSanction this postReply
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Trying to understand Ted's "vague" questions? What is vague about asking you what the word principals means, or what the adjective terrifying was modifying? You obviously didn't get either of those reading comprehension tasks right on your first attempt.

I asked you those questions, rather than just spoon feeding you the answers, in the hope that by applying the effort to think, you yourself might comprehend. If you'd prefer to blame your inability to understand a moderately complex quote on me, feel free, Peter.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 6/25, 6:21am)


Post 14

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 8:12pmSanction this postReply
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And I thought I had it pegged...

jt

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