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Friday, April 30, 2010 - 12:29amSanction this postReply
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Perhaps in context this quote rang true. But dangling out there naked in RoR land it looks quite pathetic.

Individual rights are violated by individuals, and by gangs, and by foreign nations... not just by a citizen's own government. I know, that's an inconvenient truth for the anarchist.

Had that quote just started like this: "Too often the invasion of an individual's rights..." I could have cheered it on, but no, it had to say "Every invasion..." and get posted by Jim at the very time that he's active in two threads proselytizing for anarchy.


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Friday, April 30, 2010 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
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Steve - Out of context, I agree this quote might seem overly broad. It was not my intent to put this quote out of context. This appears to be what the author meant: "Every invasion of individual rights [by the government] happens with the eager support of people acting in the sincere and thoroughly mistaken confidence that what they permit the state to do to others will never be done to them."

To put this quote in context, here is the full text of the article from this blog that was emailed to me -- I will let you decide for yourself whether this is, as Radley Balko dryly puts it in his posts on Reason.com describing police misconduct cases, "another isolated incident".

Oh, and if you read down, you will note that this author is a minarchist, based on this quote: "The seminal error is to insist on exceptions to the principle that government – assuming, of course, that one should be permitted to exist – must be strictly limited to protecting the life, liberty, and property of every individual.":


***


Every invasion of individual rights happens with the eager support of people acting in the sincere and thoroughly mistaken confidence that what they permit the state to do to others will never be done to them."

The Borders Are Closing In

by William Norman Grigg

Slavery consists of being "subject to the incessant, uncertain, arbitrary will of another man."
~ John Locke, Second Treatise of Civil Government


"When an officer tells you to come inside and sit down, you come inside and sit down.... When an officer tells you to do something, you do it .... There is no "why" here."
~ U.S. Border Guard to a befuddled Canadian citizen arbitrarily detained while trying to visit a shopping mall in Niagara Falls, New York.


Returning to his home in Toronto following a brief visit to the States last December, author Peter Watts had the misfortune of being "randomly selected" for a search by members of the Regime's Border Guards Directorate stationed at the Blue Water Bridge in Port Huron, Michigan.

The science fiction novelist's bad luck was exacerbated by a momentary miscommunication: He saw a "flicker of motion" outside his car that he assumed was a wave, rather than a demand to pull over. His passenger understood what was happening, and urged Watts to pull over – which he did.

"When I go like this, I'm not waving hello," sneered the border guard, assuming the snarky tone of unmerited superiority that armed functionaries use when addressing Mundanes.

"I guess we're not in Canada, because sometimes that means 'hello,'" Watts replied, thereby committing a potentially fatal offense called "contempt of cop."

He compounded that supposed sin by getting out of the car and asking what the guards were doing as they pawed through the luggage in his trunk and the bags in his back seat.

As a citizen of the freest country (by default) in North America, Watts made the critical error of assuming that he had the right to ask why his privacy was being invaded, and that his question would be answered. His question was answered with repeated demands that he get back in his car.

After Watts hesitated, one of the guards seized his arm. This provoked a predictable "flinch response" from Watts, who pulled his arm away.

For reasons that make perfect sense to those attuned with Kafka's sense of reality, American law enforcement officers often construe the act of pulling away from their unwanted physical contact as a form of "assault" – and thus as a pretext for the summary administration of "street justice."

First two, and then eventually three, of the stalwart guardians of our sacred northern frontier took turns pummeling the slender, mild-mannered 52-year-old man. Watts was punched, kicked, pepper-sprayed, handcuffed, then thrown wet and partially disrobed into an unheated cell. He was then interrogated, held overnight, and charged with "assaulting a federal officer" after being denied access to legal counsel (and pestered repeatedly to repudiate his Miranda rights).

After Watts' computer, flash drives, and loose-leaf notebook were confiscated, he was unceremoniously dumped – in shirtsleeves, without so much as a windbreaker – on the Canadian side of the border.

Ironically, in his novel Maelstrom, Watts – a Hugo nominee who specializes in dystopian fiction – appears to have anticipated his experience. Describing the abuse suffered by a character at the hands of customs officials, Watts observes: "Technically, of course, it was not an assault. Both aggressors wore uniforms and badges conferring the legal right to beat whomever they chose."

A jury of dutiful collectivist drones found Watts guilty of the supposed crime of "non-compliance with a border guard"; his "crime," reduced to its essence, was to ask, "why?"

Although Watts could have been forced to spend years as part the world's largest prison population, the presiding judge was content to pilfer $1,628 from the victim of the assault at the border – after treating him to a patronizing lecture about the need to be "nice" to the feral armed adolescents who constitute the State's punitive caste.

Watts' experience leaves a decidedly totalitarian aftertaste. Crossing the border of a totalitarian state — in either direction — is an experience fraught with visceral anxiety. Finding himself in the unwanted company of humorless, heavily armed goons of questionable competence and dubious intelligence, the traveler is vividly aware that he can be arrested, imprisoned, beaten, or even shot at whim.

The best thing to do in such circumstances, travelers are told, is to assume a posture of utter servility, meekly and quietly enduring whatever indignity inflicted on them until they are safely through the checkpoint. In coming years, it most likely won't be necessary to visit the border in order to have a sample of what Watts endured; experiences similar to his will become increasingly commonplace for citizens and other residing legally within the United States.

Is it easier to build a police state from the inside out, or from the outside in? We may never know, since the architects of the Homeland Security State are doing both simultaneously.

Whenever a society descends into totalitarianism, the ruling clique will eventually close the borders – not just to prevent contamination by politically troublesome foreign influences, but also to prevent the egress of refugees and (most importantly) the flight of capital to more congenial economic environments.

In our case, the invasive and arbitrary powers exercised in the name of border security are becoming embedded in routine law enforcement within the interior. Although the geography of the contiguous 48 states remains unchanged, there is a very real sense in which the borders are closing in on us.

The Border Patrol – the kind folks who treated Mr. Watts to a dose of uniquely Amerikan hospitality – already carries out warrantless, suspicionless checkpoints as far as 100 miles inside the national boundary. The Department of Homeland Security insists that the Fourth Amendment proscription of "unreasonable searches and seizures" doesn't apply to "border enforcement" searches. This would mean that the two-thirds of the U.S. population living within 100 miles of an international border are residents of a "Constitution-Free Zone."

Tragically, the expansion of the immigration control "Constitution-Free Zone" is being propelled by some of the most outspoken critics of "big government."

Last week, many (by no means all) adherents of the Tea Party movement briefly suspended their campaign against invasive government to promote and applaud the enactment of a measure turning Arizona into an authentic police state – that is, one in which police can demand identity papers from practically anyone and arrest those who don't comply.

Under SB 1070, signed into law by Gov. Jan Brewer on April 24, any "lawful contact" between a law enforcement officer and a citizen can end with the latter being arrested and detained if he cannot satisfy a "reasonable suspicion" that he is in the country without official permission.

An incident that occurred two days before that law was signed by Brewer demonstrates that a valid driver's license may not be sufficient to allay that suspicion, and that it's entirely possible for a native-born U.S. citizen who fully cooperates with the police to end up being handcuffed, arrested, detained and humiliated.

On April 22, an Arizona resident who identifies himself as Abdon (he hasn't chosen to disclose his surname) pulled his truck into a weigh station. As his vehicle was being inspected, Abdon was asked by an official to display proof of legal residency. He promptly handed over a valid Arizona commercial driving license; he also supplied his Social Security number and additional personal details.

For some reason this was considered insufficient, and Abdon ended up being cuffed and hauled away to an ICE detention facility while his wife – who was dragged out of work – was dispatched to their home to retrieve Abdon's birth certificate and other documents.

The unfortunate truck driver's birth certificate listed his birthplace as Fresno, California. This means that he – unlike one, or possibly both, major party candidates in the last presidential election – has an unassailable claim to being a "native-born United States citizen." He had complied with every demand made of him at the weigh station, and did nothing to suggest that he harbored criminal intent of any kind.

The only source of the "reasonable suspicion" that led to Abdon's arrest was his visible ethnicity. This is the standard under which American citizens (particularly, but not exclusively, of Latino ancestry) can now be harassed, arrested, and detained in the State of Arizona.

The more frequently this kind of thing happens, the likelier it becomes that innocent people will be seriously hurt – as if being accosted, questioned, and detained by armed strangers for reasons beyond one's control weren't sufficient injury.

SB 1070 has been the equivalent of a public works project for the "tolerance" industry, which is busy planning boycotts and other expressions of punitive sanctimony against Arizona. This had the predictable, albeit unfortunate, effect of leading at least some honorable people of goodwill to assume the best about the measure without examining its impact on individual liberty.

Every invasion of individual rights happens with the eager support of people acting in the sincere and thoroughly mistaken confidence that what they permit the state to do to others will never be done to them.

The seminal error is to insist on exceptions to the principle that government – assuming, of course, that one should be permitted to exist – must be strictly limited to protecting the life, liberty, and property of every individual.

When that error is coupled with a fertile topic of public concern – such as terrorism, drug addiction, child abuse, or illegal immigration – politics becomes pregnant with large-scale abuses of individual rights.

Supporters of the Arizona immigration law define the controversy as an issue of "sovereignty" – preservation of Arizona's reserved powers under the Tenth Amendment and the national independence of the United States. Political sovereignty, valuable as it is, must be regarded as a "good of second intent" – something that, while of great worth, is derivative of, or subordinate to, a much greater good. The paramount political good, according to America's founding premise, is individual liberty protected by law.

In dealing with immigration, as with all other matters of public concern, government's only legitimate role is to protect individual rights against criminal aggression – such as crimes of violence, fraud, or trespassing on private property.

Current policy, however, is to abet and reward aggression in the form of participatory plunder by illegal immigrants by way of welfare subsidies, which obviously have to be abolished (and not just for immigrants, but for everyone – beginning with the corporate welfare whores on Wall Street and in the military-industrial-homeland security complex).

Enactment of Arizona's "your papers, please" legislation – which, Judge Andrew Napolitano predicts, won't survive constitutional scrutiny – comes at a time when the problem of illegal immigration is in remission, both in that border state and nation-wide. It's entirely likely that with immigration beginning to taper off, the border enforcement apparatus being built today will increasingly be directed inward.

As the government consummates its transformation into an undisguised corporatist kleptocracy, many Americans seeking to preserve some portion of what they have earned and saved will be driven to expatriate themselves.

The Regime already treats Americans living abroad as tax slaves, irrespective of their current place of residence. Economist Doug Casey warns that currency export controls are all but inevitable – indeed, in a small but significant way, they are already a tangible reality.

Many of Obama's conservative critics simultaneously condemn him for building an invasive collectivist state and for his inadequate zeal in closing down the border. If their perception of Obama's intentions is sound, those critics had better hope and pray that he doesn't reverse course and become a border control zealot.

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Friday, April 30, 2010 - 10:55amSanction this postReply
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So, lets see if I'm getting this right.

1. The quote is wrong, as posted out of context.

2. Pointing this out actually makes a case for minarchy... at least to the extent of reminding one and all that individual rights can be violated by individuals and gangs and foreign governments.

3. This is an example of you choosing to continue your invalid pattern of argument where you say, see, Government A did a bad act, therefore we should have anarchy.
---------

I'm not sure that fellow is as solid in his commitment to minarchy as you imply. Note this statement: "The seminal error is to insist on exceptions to the principle that government – assuming, of course, that one should be permitted to exist –..."

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Post 3

Saturday, May 1, 2010 - 1:01pmSanction this postReply
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Steve: So, lets see if I'm getting this right.

1. The quote is wrong, as posted out of context.

2. Pointing this out actually makes a case for minarchy... at least to the extent of reminding one and all that individual rights can be violated by individuals and gangs and foreign governments.

3. This is an example of you choosing to continue your invalid pattern of argument where you say, see, Government A did a bad act, therefore we should have anarchy.


1. The quote was right -- it was accurate. It was exactly what the author wrote. When you post new content by adding a quote, there is no field to fill in where you add personal observations, unlike when you add video links or article links. Normally, I would have linked to the actual article, but I received this quote and the article in a private email, so linking to that would obviously be problematic. When I saw your (somewhat pissy, but hey, that's OK, we all get in sour moods sometimes) comment, I realized that it would be helpful to post the full article in the comment, so I did so immediately, thinking that would be the end of the pissiness.

2. The article is by a minarchist, but it didn't really weigh in on the minarchy / A-C debate. It was a quote prefacing an article about the immigration debate, showing how at least one government agent guarding a border that arguably doesn't need guarding horribly mistreating an individual who didn't cower and act submissively, and then saying that this wasn't an isolated incidence, that many police tend to abuse their authority.

I will stipulate that if you give anyone a badge and a gun, whether in a minarchist context or an A-C private protective agency, there will be the temptation to misuse that authority. The people who are drawn to law enforcement type jobs tend to skew authoritarian, whether they are a private mall cop or a government SWAT team member.

3. I made no such argument here whatsoever. Show me where, in my own words, I made such an argument anywhere on this thread. If you look at the actual quote and links I posted, nowhere did I weigh in on the minarchy / A-C debate, nor was that my intent. You are the one getting your panties in a bunch and trying to drag in a debate from some other threads. If you want to threadjack and debate that here, fine, but enough with the accusations of nefarious intent when that wasn't the case. I saw an interesting quote, I spent a minute or so posting it as written, end of story.

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Saturday, May 1, 2010 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

When I said that the quote was wrong, I did not mean you quoted the author inaccurately. As I said, "Individual rights are violated by individuals, and by gangs, and by foreign nations... not just by a citizen's own government." And you know that - it was clear in your reply.

You continue to bring up examples of government abuses... and it immediately follows multiple threads where that has been one of your major arguments against government and in favor of anarchy. A person would have to be really dense not to connect the two. I don't care whether you were explicitly arguing for anarchy, or just repeating that old theme of governments always create abuse. So, I'd say it is your anarchy panties that are all twisted up.

As to my "pissy" attitude... It is from seeing anarchy being promoted on RoR (I would have the same negative attitude if someone was proselytizing for socialism or fascism). It is offensive and it should be done in Dissent.

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Saturday, May 1, 2010 - 2:42pmSanction this postReply
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my "pissy" attitude... is from seeing anarchy being promoted on RoR (I would have the same negative attitude if someone was proselytizing for socialism or fascism). It is offensive and it should be done in Dissent.

Steve -- you're welcome to ask the owner of this website to ban discussion on the limits of minarchism as it approaches anarcho-capitalism, by asserting that it's settled philosophy, that government can be shrunk only so far and no farther, end of discussion.

Perhaps you could also seek to ban discussion by minarchists here that believe in somewhat less government than you, since that might tend toward anarcho-capitalism, or somewhat more than you, since that might tend toward socialism, and dammit, those perspectives might make you feel uncomfortable and offended and we just can't have that?

Because nothing says modern liberalism Objectivism quite like enforcing speech codes that deviate from the official approved perspective of some authority figure.
(Edited by Jim Henshaw on 5/01, 2:49pm)


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Saturday, May 1, 2010 - 5:06pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

It is Joe's site and he will set the rules. If he wants to restrict anarchy discussions to Dissent, he will.

Perhaps you are confused about the difference between a private party deciding upon the use of their property and a government that threatens to initiate force as a way to censor speech? I know that you anarchists don't have a very tight grasp on concepts like the difference between voluntary actions and force, or private property.

Your cheap insult of Objectivism just shows ignorance and isn't worth comment... Or, maybe it wasn't intended as an insult. Maybe you think nobody should be able to tell people what they can or cannot post on a private site. Or, maybe you think all political views are equally worthy of being posted. With an anarchist, it is hard to tell what you are 'thinking.'

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Post 7

Monday, May 3, 2010 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
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On the other hand, don't the citizens of AZ have a right not to be invaded by looters and criminals?  There are plenty who don't do that, but letting everyone in illegally means a free pass for any and all criminal activity, which is why their crime rate is soaring and kidnapping for ransom is now a major problem in Phoenix (#2 city in the world).  That is an express trip to 3rd world status.

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Post 8

Monday, May 3, 2010 - 10:45amSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

Jim is an anarchist. I assume he wouldn't want any control over the borders.

Objectivists are split on the issue of immigration, with some believing that a country has the right to determine who can come into the country and others say no, that it would violate the right of the would-be immigrant to stop them from entering when they have violated no ones rights.

I believe that part of what every citizen owns, in common, are our political and legal structures. We paid for them, created them and have defended them. We have a right to deny anyone from crossing the border into the country and taking advantage of these structures, much less damaging them. It is just an application of property rights and not much different from whoever is in charge of a building saying who can come in and who can't - even if the building is a state-owned court house, for example.

Damage is done to our structures if we aren't rational in how we manage immigration. We should attempt to determine the optimum rate of immigration and which immigrants will best suit our countries needs.

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Post 9

Monday, May 3, 2010 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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In general I am pro-immigration.  I just think that it is now an uncontrolled, dangerous mess.  There needs to be a controlled and reasonable influx of immigrants allowed.

I was just watching HistoryChannel and they mentioned Texas became US because US citizens immigrated and soon outnumbered Mexicans 10:1.  Kind of ironic.


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Monday, May 3, 2010 - 8:59pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

I want lots of immigrants, but, like you, in a controlled fashion. Some coming in to work at low rates on a guest worker program, others coming in for a green-card - those who are skilled. And those who are going to stay need to be on a path to citizenship that include adopting our country and bringing them in at a rate that allows us to absorb them without having our culture swamped. We lose our culture when the rate of immigration goes too high.

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Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 10:14amSanction this postReply
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Jim is an anarchist. I assume he wouldn't want any control over the borders.

Both minarchists and anarchists have to deal with the current highly statist government we live in. So, in the context of the welfare state we currently live within, I would want to limit the influx of people who have no jobs and who intend to live off others without working. I would also want to screen for terrorists and criminals and deny them entry. But, people actively seeking jobs (or who are independently wealthy and can live off those proceeds) and with no terrorist or criminal record -- I say, let them come in.

If we did away with most or all welfare benefits, I would no longer care if people coming here were seeking jobs.

And, in an anarchist society, there would be no public property, so the "border" would consist of plots of private land which the owners would decide who they wanted to let enter upon. Presumably, the owners of the private roads at the border (and the private airports and private harbors further in) would welcome the revenue generated by people coming into the country and paying the fees for using those facilities.

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Post 12

Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 10:24pmSanction this postReply
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I want lots of immigrants, but, like you, in a controlled fashion. Some coming in to work at low rates on a guest worker program, others coming in for a green-card - those who are skilled. And those who are going to stay need to be on a path to citizenship that include adopting our country and bringing them in at a rate that allows us to absorb them without having our culture swamped. We lose our culture when the rate of immigration goes too high. (Emphasis added)
A culture doesn't have rights; only individuals do, and any individual who is not a criminal, terrorist or harboring a serious infectious disease -- in other words anyone who does not pose a threat to the lives or property of others -- has a right to come here and work. He or she does not have to be on a path to citizenship. This is strictly an issue of individual rights -- of freedom of action.


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Post 13

Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 11:14pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I never said that a culture has rights.
---------------

You said, "...any individual who is not a criminal, terrorist or harboring a serious infectious disease -- in other words anyone who does not pose a threat to the lives or property of others -- has a right to come here and work."

I disagree.

If I said, "...any individual who is not a criminal, terrorist or harboring a serious infectious disease -- in other words anyone who does not pose a threat to the lives or property of others -- has a right to come onto your property," You would have no problem pointing out the error in my statement. You would point out that your property is under your control - that is the essence of property rights. My argument is that citizens of our country have property rights in common property.

Like I wrote in post #8, referring to "...our political and legal structures. We paid for them, created them and have defended them. We have a right to deny anyone from crossing the border into the country and taking advantage of these structures, much less damaging them. It is just an application of property rights and not much different from whoever is in charge of a building saying who can come in and who can't - even if the building is a state-owned court house, for example."



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Post 14

Wednesday, May 5, 2010 - 10:34pmSanction this postReply
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Steve wrote,
If I said, "...any individual who is not a criminal, terrorist or harboring a serious infectious disease -- in other words anyone who does not pose a threat to the lives or property of others -- has a right to come onto your property," You would have no problem pointing out the error in my statement. You would point out that your property is under your control - that is the essence of property rights. My argument is that citizens of our country have property rights in common property.
This is just wrong. It's not even remotely consistent with Objectivism. The United States is not the "common property" of its citizens. Each citizen owns his or her own property; a collective of citizens does not own the country. If a private business is willing to hire a worker from another country, by what right do you or does anyone else tell him that he has no right to come here and work. You don't own the employer's property, nor do you own the labor of the person who is willing to work for him. You might as well argue that the government (acting as "our" agent) also has the right to limit the importation of foreign goods, even if private consumers are willing to buy them.
Like I wrote in post #8, referring to "...our political and legal structures. We paid for them, created them and have defended them.
Who's "we"? I didn't create them, and they certainly don't reflect my political views or values.
We have a right to deny anyone from crossing the border into the country and taking advantage of these structures . . .
Again, who is "we"? If you, I and/or the government don't have a right to prohibit the importation of foreign goods, then why do we have the right to prohibit the importation of foreign labor.
It is just an application of property rights and not much different from whoever is in charge of a building saying who can come in and who can't - even if the building is a state-owned court house, for example."
By that argument, the government, as an agent of the collective, would have the right to deport anyone it chooses, just as a landlord has the right to evict any tenant that he chooses. Do you really want to say that the state has property rights over its own territory? If you do, you will have surrendered individual rights, and embraced statism; you will have ushered in collectivism through the back door.

(Edited by William Dwyer on 5/05, 10:43pm)


Post 15

Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 12:42amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Are you denying the existence of common property? Or, are you denying that the structures I named are common property?
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There most certainly are things that are common property - because they are held by the government - like a court house. And that most certainly is property and the citizens of the United States are the owners, and the government is the manager. If you have a different idea about who owns that court house please explain.
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"We" is all Americans, past and present who have paid taxes and voted. Some things are built in that fashion. If you own stock in a company, you are part of a collective ownership. If you have been investing in that company over the years, as it grew, then you were part of those who built the company - since funding is a needed component of that growth.
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Referring to my use of the word "we" you said, "...they certainly don't reflect my political views or values." Nor mine. Nor do I like collective decisions made by a republic, but it is better than anarchy or statism. Who ever said that they reflected your political views or values? Not me.
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Why do you keep saying who is "We" - the context makes perfectly clear that it is "our" government or us as a nation. If I said, "We may end up bombing Iran before the year is out," that would NOT mean that you were in favor it bombing, or that you personally would be carting bombs around, but it would mean that "our" government was the intended subject.
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I have the right to keep people off of my property. Certainly there is someone who has the right to keep people from dismantling the court house and carrying away pieces. It is property and there are rights relating to that property. No, I'm not claiming that the government has individual rights. But I am claiming that we have no choice but to have a minimal amount of common property - like a court house. And it is the citizens of country that own that property - in common. Their property rights are delegated to the government who manages that property. Without that delegation, the government wouldn't have the right to do anything with the court house. Do you disagree with anything I've written so far in this post?
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In your last paragraph you say, "By that argument [my argument that someone has control over who can come into a court house], the government, as an agent of the collective, would have the right to deport anyone it chooses, just as a landlord has the right to evict any tenant that he chooses. Do you really want to say that the state has property rights over its own territory? If you do, you will have surrendered individual rights, and embraced statism; you will have ushered in collectivism through the back door."

I agree that any illegal immigrant could and should be deported, but not any citizen. I did not say that the state has property rights over its own territory. That mischaracterizes my argument.

I'm saying that the citizens of the United States ("we") have rights over whatever property is held in common. And that property does not belong to those who are not citizens. And that the owners of the property determine how they choose to use that property. I don't like it... I don't like common property. I don't like anything that is collective in nature. But it is illogical and harmful to ignore reality. Reality: There is common property. Reality: There is a need for government to manage the common property. It is proper to expect government to manage the court house properly. That is the foundation for my argument.
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It would be wrong to deny the rights of citizens by saying that the politicians or buerocrats are the sole and final owners of the court house.

Under real property law in most states they have two different kinds of collective property structures - condominiums, and planned communities - both with homeowner associations. The differences are technical, because the homeowners own the common property. In one case they are each recorded as possessing a fractional share of the commons (condominiums) or they are recorded as possession a fractional share of the assocation that owns the common property (like owning shares in a company that owns property). We also have partnerships in addition to private and publicly held corportations. All forms of ownership that usually have delegated management.

All that I'm doing is making sure we don't forget that we (as in "We the people of the United States...", you know, as in "We hold these truths to be self-evident...") are the owners of everything that is held in common. The day that is forgotten, then the state does become our ruler instead of the manager of that common property.

If you disagree with the analysis as far as the court house is concerned, then it is no use of my continuing to extend the argument to the more abstract common property - just as it would be foolish to attempt to defend intellectual property rights if the person you are discussing them with doesn't agree to any form of property rights.


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Post 16

Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

There is such a thing as common property -- e.g., a marriage, partnership, corporation, and home-owners' association -- but these are forms of private property, because they entail voluntary, contractual agreements among the various parties. A country like the United States is not anyone's property, let alone the common property of its citizens. It is a territory of private property owners that is presided over by a government, but that territory is not the common property of its residents with the government as its "manager."

Nor is a government building, like a courthouse, the common property of its city's residents. Under a proper government, it would be the private property of the judiciary officials who were paid voluntarily by individuals to have their disputes resolved under its auspices. However, as they exist today, government buildings are financed by the expropriated earnings of taxpayers and are therefore not legitimate property.

- Bill

Post 17

Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 1:19pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

You said, "There is such a thing as common property -- e.g., a marriage, partnership, corporation, and home-owners' association -- but these are forms of private property, because they entail voluntary, contractual agreements among the various parties. A country like the United States is not anyone's property, let alone the common property of its citizens. It is a territory of private property owners that is presided over by a government, but that territory is not the common property of its residents with the government as its "manager."

I agree - totally.
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You said, "Nor is a government building, like a courthouse, the common property of its city's residents. Under a proper government, it would be the private property of the judiciary officials who were paid voluntarily by individuals to have their disputes resolved under its auspices. However, as they exist today, government buildings are financed by the expropriated earnings of taxpayers and are therefore not legitimate property."

Here we disagree, in part. I agree that where we can, we institute private services, like we have private arbitration today which can be used in lieu of lower courts. But there will never be a Supreme Court of the United States as a privately owned service with a privately owned building. And there are the buildings used by the military, the police, the state supreme courts, congress, etc. I agree that it is critically important to reduce this common property to the smallest possible amount, but it will never go to zero. I too believe that a minarchy can be voluntarily funded. But there will still be that common property. And government, even a fully voluntarily funded minarchy, is not optional - it is intended to use force and to be the keeper of that set of laws that regulate the use of force.

The reality is that there will be property under control of, and used by, the government. Years, even decades before that happy day when the last tax is repealed, there will be taxes that, hopefully, are much, much lower. I would not say that the citizens do not own the property because of the taxes. How can you conceptualize the 'property' that is a building that is used by the government? Is it non-property? Or, are you willing to say that government has ownership rights? I certainly wouldn't want to vest the politicians or bureaucrats with property rights- because they did acquired 'title' via their expropriation.

If taxes were, say 2% national sales tax and a 1% state sales tax, then at level, which is so much lower than today as to be different in nature. Different, despite the fact that it is still expropriation (i.e., backed by force) it would be much closer to a voluntarily funded government - and that is important because it means that it makes more sense to see the few remaining buildings that government uses as owned by the citizens.

When a thief steals someone's car, they get the car, but not clear title. 'Property' is the bundle of rights that constitute ownership and not the thing being referenced. I see the citizens owning government controlled property, but the officials are granted rights to use the property. The collective nature of the rights retained by the citizens makes it awkward to do things to the building (modify, sell, etc.) But that is similar to the difficulty I'd have attempting to influence the use of buildings controlled by a corporation when I don't own all the stock.

I believe that what is at stake here is the legitimacy of the government use and control of the property - not the fact of the citizen's common ownership. The more the government engages in expropriation, the more the government uses a piece of property for ends not proper to government, the less legitimate is their claim to use that property. The government has a very legitimate claim to the use of the Supreme Court building in terms of it's purpose, and the less statist the government becomes overall, the stronger that claim. But it remains common property of the citizens regardless.


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Post 18

Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with Bill here. If you have an immigrant that wants to come here and is not a suspected criminal, suspected terrorist nor does he have a communicable disease, is offered employment by a business on American soil, and buys housing for himself from a private property owner, under what principle can anyone say this immigrant should not have the freedom to do this? Denying him this freedom of action is not just a violation of the immigrant's rights, but the rights of the business owner offering him a job and the private property owner wishing to sell or rent him housing. The appeal to taxes as a reason to mitigate immigration is specious, since there's no reason to say we are required to be taxed, nor does it mean an immigrant wouldn't be subject to the same laws, including tax laws, that the rest of are subject to. The idea that we should mitigate immigration strikes me as a protectionist measure against labor competition. The idea that we need to preserve a culture that is generally founded on the principles of freedom by restricting freedom seems out of whack.

Post 19

Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 5:28pmSanction this postReply
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John,

Here are a couple of interesting points to consider.

1. Under your arrangement, the government is stopping people at the border, without any probable cause of having violated anyone's rights and subjecting them to questioning. Then the government is denying some people entry into the country when those same people, if they were already in the country, would not be denied entry into public malls, government buildings, or be impeded in anyway, and have not violated anyone's rights.

If the government does not have the right to stop a person from coming in to go to work for someone, then it does not have the right to stop them for questioning.

(p.s., I'm a strong believer in a very open, easy to use, robust guest worker program.)
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2. As a mental experiment, imagine that Arizona was successful in seceeding from the union, and that every single property owner in the state was offered citizenship in the new country and asked to sign an agreement (kind of like the covenant that one agrees to when moving into a planned community. Imagine that those who were reluctant were bribed with large sums of money.) This agreement states that they agree that no one will be accepted as a citizen without agreeing to the government's laws, including very restrictive immigration, and to a state tax. Now, in this imaginary situation, an entire country has become just like a planned community where the government is a government, but it has an element that is like a homeowner's association - everybody has agreed to a set of terms, and is given a fractional ownership of all of the property controlled by the government.

Notice that a would-be immigrant in Mexico would be the same in every way before and after this transformation in Arizona. But after the transformation he has no right to come into the new country except according the rules created by those who own the common property - the citizens. This is what tells me to look in the area of legal rights as opposed to individual rights when dealing with immigration.
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Neither of those two points are intended as comprehensive arguments, but merely to show that this is a more complex issue than most people realize.

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