About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Wednesday, February 16, 2011 - 1:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The graph here is the basis of the clown Krugman's comment  It's far from clear how the graph was made. It's drawn as a continuous line rather than, say, a bar chart using discrete numbers.

The following are numbers from a different site.

Year    $ billion
2007   4,924.60
2008   5,335.20
2009   5,984.10
2010   6,036.90

No surge????


Post 1

Wednesday, February 16, 2011 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Krugman took the opposite tactic of Michael Mann. He didn't want to show a "hockey stick" graph.   :-)

Post 2

Wednesday, February 16, 2011 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
We do need change. The change I have in mind is a growing cultural awareness of the insanity of arguing with liars as if their positions were of equal moral or logical weight to those of honest men. First we have to examine the honesty of the speaker, then before addressing their arguments (if they are addressed at all) we need to point out the lies in loud, clear tones.

For individuals like Krugman, lying is not a new thing and the replies to him should show the accumulated weight of past lies - dragging his reputation out in the light with great frequency.

Post 3

Wednesday, February 16, 2011 - 11:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
When you read Krugman's comment it sounds like he thinks we need to do more stimulus.... enough to overcome all that nasty cutting he has alleged the states have done.

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 4

Thursday, February 17, 2011 - 5:33amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
When you read Krugman's comment it sounds like he thinks we need to do more stimulus.... enough to overcome all that nasty cutting he has alleged the states have done.

Agreed. Your "alleged" is correct. The following numbers show state and local government spending (using the link in post 0):

Year    $ billion
2007   2,663.20
2008   2,834.10
2009   2,999.70
2010   3,175.10

I wonder what Krugman believes a "surge" is.  12% (5,984/5,335 - 1) isn't? Would 50% or 100% be a "surge"?




Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Post 5

Thursday, February 17, 2011 - 8:43amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rational man to enter the mind of a progressive :-)



Post 6

Friday, February 18, 2011 - 12:13pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Merlin,

Krugman is saying not that there hasn't been an increase in government spending; he's saying that the increase hasn't accelerated -- that it's continued at about the same rate as before. At least that's what his graph shows. The figures you a quoted from 2007 to 2010 don't contradict that.


Post 7

Friday, February 18, 2011 - 1:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill,

Krugman didn't say "accelerate." But I'll consider it anyway.
2007 to 2008 was an 8.3% increase, and 2008 to 2009 was a 12.2% increase. That's an "acceleration" in any normal use of the word.

Moreover, Krugman said there were cutbacks in state and local government spending. The numbers in post 4 do contradict that.

P.S. I found the graph Krugman used here http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/GEXPND with the range changed to 10 years.

I also found this graph of state and local government spending: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/ASLEXPND?cid=107
Change the range to 10 years. Where is the cutback?
The numbers (downloadable) show one small decrease one quarter (the dip in 2008). However, 2 quarters later the increase was 4 times the decrease!


(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 2/18, 2:49pm)


Post 8

Saturday, February 19, 2011 - 7:43amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This overall argument -- that government didn't spend enough -- was used by Keynesians to explain the long, slow, drawn-out "recovery" from the Great Depression.

If you look at Merlin's St. Louis Fed link and compare and contrast the bracketed, 10-year slopes of spending from 1950 to today (also works with the state and local graph), then you see that every 10-year section involves a slope increase. That a geometric progression where, eventually, spending would reach infinity (if it weren't for national bankruptcy).

Of note is that spending was relatively flat in the 1950's (when huge interstate highway projects were underway). If spending from 1950 to today has increased, say, 100-fold, but population is nowhere near 100-fold larger, then spending per capita is much larger today. If spending per capita is much larger today and we still have a recession, then how can these dim-wits keep saying we need to spend more in order to offset the "fact" that we don't spend more?

Apparently, a slope increase in spending rises (one outpacing population growth), isn't an instance of increased spending. One wonders exactly what amount of new spending would actually get categorized by them as a true, bonafide increase in spending. A 25% increase? A 50% increase? A 100% increase? A 200% increase? A 1000% increase? A 10,000% increase?

What they do wrong is to look a few years back in order to see what kind of increase is "normal". This is the existentialist, hypothetico-deductive method -- where "normal" is assumed to be "recent, local, and usual" and deviations are checked against the unquestioned standard of the much-hallowed recent, local, and usual. Note: This is how animals think. The progressive (social?) science principle: The Precautionary Principle does the same thing.

It's like these 2 methods were designed for those who "think" in only concrete-bound terms (those who "think" like animals).

Ed

p.s. If I could debate Krugman, I would tell him that he thinks like an animal -- but I don't foresee the debate going well after that.

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 2/19, 7:50am)


Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 11:25amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Modern economic debate often refers to 'Keynesians' as if there were ever actually practitioners of Keyne's theory.

I'm not aware of any, certainly not in the US.

Keyne's complete theory had two parts to it:

1] Save during booms. (Run uphill.)
2] Spend during busts. (Run downhill.)

Modern governments have only practiced the following model:

1] Spend during booms. (Run downhill.)
2] Spend even more during busts. (Run downhill faster.)


It is a misnomer to call folks who want to 'spend faster' as the solution to ever problem, like Krugman, 'Keynesians,'

They should be called what they are: 'spenders.'

There is not even a mechanism of government savings of tax revenues, with rare exceptions(local school district capital accounts.) How can any figure in US political/government history ever accurately be called 'a Keynesian?'

It has become a cartoon shorthand for something that it is not: Keynesian theory.

The thing it actually refers to is 'spend always, but spend even more during busts.'

That isn't Keyne's theory. It is at most a politicians abusive and selective dipping into half of Keyne's theory, dressing up spending as economic theory.





Post 10

Friday, May 13, 2011 - 10:53amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Isn't it by now painfully obvious where an economic policy based on the model "always run downhill" has been leading us?

In what universe is it possible to always only run downhill?

To only spend?

To only consume?

To only carve carcass?

To never build beast?

It for sure is the path of least effort...all the way to the bottom. That's what we've been led on by our leaders:
a race to the bottom.

We there yet? We're for sure trying.


Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.