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Post 0

Thursday, June 2, 2011 - 11:51amSanction this postReply
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It never occurred to me until I read this passage that Greenspan found himself forced to react to Clinton's expedient bond refinancing choice. I posted this to see if others more familiar with the situation had anything to share to shed additional light on it. Please do so if you can.

Post 1

Thursday, June 2, 2011 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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During the Clinton presidency interest was a much bigger part of the federal spending largely because spending was much lower than present. For example, in FY 1995 interest was 12% of total federal spending. The average interest rate was about 4.7%.  In FY 1999 interest was 13.5% of total federal spending. The average interest rate was about 4%. So longer maturities with higher interest rates would have been fairly significant.

In FY 2010 interest was about 5.7% of federal spending, much smaller largely because of much greater federal spending. The average interest rate was about 4.7%.

I used this site for the above numbers. Incidentally, here is a history of discount rates and target fed funds rates.

Part of the quote is "The chairman found himself raising the prime rate repeatedly, trying to slow down the stock market."

This is a bizarre claim. It's news to me that Greenspan ever tried to slow down the stock market by raising interest rates. Indeed, he often lowered interest rates in order to buoy the stock market, such as after the stock market dove in October 1987, during the Asian currency crisis, during the Long Term Capital Management crisis, and after September 11, 2001. Also, the Fed does not control the prime rate, only the discount rate and the target fed funds rate. About the only thing I know Greenspan did to try to slow down the stock market was to say "irrational exuberance."

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 6/02, 4:23pm)


Post 2

Thursday, June 2, 2011 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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There are lots of problems with this quote:
1. Author used inflation in the keynesian way: inflation = price increases. There is no point in even mentioning this definition of "inflation"... anyways...
2. Improvements in the economy cause the prices of things to go down. This is called "deflation" using the poor chicago/keynesian definition... Hence the idea of the fed desiring to ruin the economy to decrease inflation is ridiculous.
3. If the Fed is always willing to print more money (inflate the money supply, austrian inflation) and loan it out at a low interest rate, the interest rate can stay low indefinitely. Hence inflation doesn't necessarily cause low interest rates when the person who sets the interest rate is the person who is creating the money.
4. The author talks about how the Fed needed to keep the rates low, and then it contradicts itself and says that it had to increase the rates.
5. The author claims that the Fed increasing the interest rate is bad for the economy. When in actuality, the Fed competing with private investors in investing results in massive wealth redistribution by the government and reduced incentive to work beyond making ends meet. Now people who wouldn't have otherwise have been able to afford a loan in the private sector can now afford a loan because they get money at a low interest rate from the Fed (who gives them money that it prints). It destroys a big incentive for people to be productive (so that they can earn good interest on their profits). Double wammy. If the Fed stopped handing out loans altogether we'd be in much better shape (effectively an infinite interest rate where no one would be willing to take out a loan from the Fed).
6. Deflation, capital anemia... keynesian fool.

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Post 3

Friday, June 3, 2011 - 7:20amSanction this postReply
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I contacted the author and he promptly replied. He said that what actually mattered was the way the media handled economic news, e.g. every time there was good economic news, it was "bad" because it was going to spark a new round of inflation. This in turn gave Greenspan motive to combat inflation to quell public worries about it. I could not talk the author into coming here to post himself, however, nor do I fault him for not doing so.

"I always wanted to meet a one-armed economist so that he couldn't say, 'on the other hand.'" -- Ronald Reagan

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 6/03, 7:21am)


Post 4

Friday, June 3, 2011 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
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Dean wrote,
If the Fed is always willing to print more money (inflate the money supply, austrian inflation) and loan it out at a low interest rate, the interest rate can stay low indefinitely.
In the short term, interest rates will be lower, but eventually they'll go up along with the rate of of inflation, because lenders will add the expected rate of inflation to the real interest rate in order to avoid losing money on the loan. So if the expected rate of inflation is 5%, and the lender wants a 3% return on his money, he'll add the expected rate of inflation (5%) to the 3% return that he desires, and charge a nominal rate of 8%. The higher is the rate of inflation, the higher will be the nominal rate of interest.


Post 5

Friday, June 3, 2011 - 9:59amSanction this postReply
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Just a thought experiment on the above scenario Bill describes. If banks start raising interest rates to cover higher rates of inflation, more price sensitive customers might leave the lending market, putting pressure on banks to reduce their rates to capture back this market, but they still need to charge higher than the rate of inflation making profit margins for banks lower, leading to some banks not being able to compete with those that have a better economy of scale. So now you have a situation where there are fewer banks than before.

Post 6

Friday, June 3, 2011 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
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I suspect that there are no loans made at a certain rates of inflation. By the time you need a wheelbarrow to carry the bundles of million dollar bills to the bakery is about the time that no one is making loans.

Because of the exponential curve that appears in the inflationary spiral, the time-window against which a lender is willing to engage will grow shorter and shorter. It is a movement towards chaos and when that is approaching, no one goes out in the market to make commitments which only become profitable if things are stable over time.

In our country, how fast and in what way would the government react as the needed interest rates became more than the usury laws permitted? Would they attempt to raise the legal rate, or eliminate those laws so that lenders would continue to make loans, or would they let the usury laws act as defacto price controls on interest rates? (Which of course would quickly end lending). I suspect the later - "stop those evil banks from price gouging."

Then there is the issue of private lending, fiat money lending, and quasi-private lending. It is all one big market place where people go to borrow money - but some organizations can belly up to the discount window and get freshly minted fiat money at whatever rate the board of governors of the fed have set. That can be quite different from the amount Joe Blow has to pay to get someone to finance his car loan. And then there are the bank loans where they may get their money from a central bank but are lending it to another bank for overnight or some other use that is regulated and somewhere in between free market and government intervention in the lending market. I'd say that nterest rates are one of the least free market services in our economy.

Post 7

Friday, June 3, 2011 - 7:14pmSanction this postReply
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Steve wrote,
Then there is the issue of private lending, fiat money lending, and quasi-private lending. It is all one big market place where people go to borrow money - but some organizations can belly up to the discount window and get freshly minted fiat money at whatever rate the board of governors of the fed have set. That can be quite different from the amount Joe Blow has to pay to get someone to finance his car loan. And then there are the bank loans where they may get their money from a central bank but are lending it to another bank for overnight or some other use that is regulated and somewhere in between free market and government intervention in the lending market. I'd say that interest rates are one of the least free market services in our economy.
The discount rate is generally higher than the federal funds rate -- which is the rate that banks charge other banks for overnight loans -- and the federal funds rate is not set directly by the central bank, but is determined in the open market by the supply and demand for loanable funds, which is influenced by an increase or decrease in the money supply through the Fed's buying and selling of treasury bonds in the open market.

Right now, the federal funds rate is virtually zero -- 0.1%. In 1981, it was 19%. The rate of inflation during that year averaged between 10 and 11%. Since the real interest rate is the nominal rate minus the expected rate of inflation, the real federal funds rate in 1981 would have depended on what lenders expected the inflation rate to be going forward. Judging from the difference between the nominal federal funds rate and the rate of inflation, they evidently expected it to even higher than 11%. It had risen as high as 14% in 1980. Inflation raises all interest rates, the federal funds rate, the discount rate, and the prime rate.

(Edited by William Dwyer on 6/03, 7:15pm)


Post 8

Friday, June 3, 2011 - 10:05pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

You said, "Inflation raises all interest rates, the federal funds rate, the discount rate, and the prime rate."

I have to disagree with you. There is no question that the rate of inflation is an important consideration for any private lender, but the government's interference is so massive that banks currently borrow from the government at interest rates that are FAR BELOW the rate of inflation.

The government's stated inflation rate (which understates actual inflation rate) is hundreds of times higher than the fed funds rate and we have seen the fed lower the interest rates in hopes of offsetting the credit contraction while at the same time they inflated the money supply.

And the high interest rates from the 80's are seen as being the chosen approach to bring down inflation and not just as part of the market reaction to inflation. To stop the inflation from the Carter years, Volker raised the fed funds rate to 20% in June of 1982 and was attacked for what it did to credit dependent markets, like construction and real estate.

The Fed funds rate is a target which is set by the Federal Open Market Committee who meet 8 times a year (more often if needed) and they use open market operations to support interest rate targets, (or money supply targets, or exchange rate targets). They do a 'repo' - a repurchase agreement with central banks whose effect, and purpose is to adjust the interest rate. So, I repeat, the government interference determines interest rates. It is but one factor. There is also risk (different banks get points added to or subtracted from the "Prime rate" - to match their considered creditworthiness). The Prime rate tends to be 3 percent above the fed funds rate - so it is going up and down with the targets set by FOMC.

Post 9

Saturday, June 4, 2011 - 12:56amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I wrote, "Inflation raises all interest rates, the federal funds rate, the discount rate, and the prime rate." You replied,
I have to disagree with you. There is no question that the rate of inflation is an important consideration for any private lender, but the government's interference is so massive that banks currently borrow from the government at interest rates that are FAR BELOW the rate of inflation."

The government's stated inflation rate (which understates actual inflation rate) is hundreds of times higher than the fed funds rate and we have seen the fed lower the interest rates in hopes of offsetting the credit contraction while at the same time they inflated the money supply.
Good points, Steve. You are correct; the federal funds rate itself is often below the rate of inflation. It was evidently Volker's raising the Fed Funds rate In 1981 that caused it to be higher than the rate of inflation. I had forgotten about that. However, before Volker became Fed Chairman, the Federal Funds rate was already almost 11%. What is interesting is that by selling Treasuries and withdrawing money from the economy, he had to raise it as high as 19% in order to have the desired effect of stemming inflation. I'd be interested in what you think of the following comments by Milton Friedman on this issue: He was asked the following question:

"1. Given the Fed’s ability to influence the federal fund rate, why doesn’t the fed simply set its target at a low level – say 2% - and just keep it there?" He answered:

"In order to carry out such a policy beginning with a situation in which the federal funds rate is 5.5%, the Fed would have to engage in large scale open market purchases. That would set in motion a rapid increase in the quantity of money, which, in turn would lead to a rapid increase in total spending, and after an interval, inflation. The demand for loans, including for federal funds, would zoom. Upward pressure on the federal funds rate would mean that the Fed would have to engage in larger and larger purchases to keep the federal funds rate at 2%. The result would be hyperinflation.

"What this hypothetical example indicates is that while the Fed can at any time influence the federal funds rate, it cannot set it wherever it wishes without unacceptable results. If it could, the federal funds rate would never have been over 19% in some months of 1981."

Hmm.

A second questioner asked:

"2. Economists talk about a “real interest rate”. What is that?" Friedman answered:

"The interest rate adjusted for inflation. Suppose you lend $100 for a year at 5% interest, so at the end of the year you would receive $105. If prices have risen 3% during the year, the $105 will buy only as much as $102 would have purchased a year earlier. You have realized a real interest rate of 2%. High nominal interest rates (like the 19% federal funds rate in 1981) almost always reflect high inflation."

Another question:

"3. Newspaper accounts tend to take it for granted that a change in the target federal funds rate affects other interest rates in the same direction – including even the rate on mortgages. Is that true?

"Different interest rates do tend to move together, but the correlation is far from perfect. A change in the Fed’s target rate has no direct effect on other rates, though it may have an indirect effect through altering the expectations of borrowers and lenders. More important, Fed open market purchases of government securities to enforce a reduction in the target rate add to bank liquidity. That increases the availability of loans, which tends to lower interest rates across the board, particularly on short-term loans such as three-month treasury bills, or commercial paper. However, it also tends to stimulate the economy. That increases the demand for loans, which tends to raise interest rates. The latter effect becomes dominant if monetary expansion is continued at a high rate. As a result the immediate and long-run effects of monetary policy on interest rates generally are in opposite directions." (Emphasis added)

(Edited by William Dwyer on 6/04, 8:37am)


Post 10

Saturday, June 4, 2011 - 10:23amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I agree with all three points. We agree on the economics.

My point was about the degree to which the interest rates are a product of government interference - first they are kept artificially low, but that cannot be done for long and since it is being done by pumping out fiat money, the resulting increase in the money supply will degrade the value of all dollars and this will cause the demand for higher interest rates before lenders will lend. And that prompts the Fed to pump out still more fiat money. If they keep pumping out enough money and soon enough, they stay ahead of the demand for increasing interest rates. (Till things start to get out of hand.)

It is a spiral that requires ever greater injections of fiat money and eventually fails. So, first the interest rates are artificially lower because of government, then they become high, not artificially, but because of the inflation caused by government, or they become artificially high because of government interference as they try to soak up the previously released fiat money to tamp down the fires of inflation. (Also, as they are kept low, what started as a credit crunch turns into a shortage of those willing to loan because the interest rates are being kept lower than the inflation rate.)

I suspect that the real market interest rate isn't even knowable because of the massive size of the governments interference.

When Nixon engaged in gasoline price controls we would have seen something similar if the interference had been less simplistic and involved periodic injections of quantities of gasoline into the market from some large government pool (like today's strategic oil reserves) to offset the decreased supply caused by the artificially low price. If Nixon had set up a Gas Price Control Board, that attempted to stabilize the price of gas over time, after a while we would have to guess what the real market price would be. (The gas price anology doesn't hold for very long, since there is no such thing as fiat gas and that scheme would crumple much sooner than this ponzi-like scheme the fed has been engaged in where they try to control the price of using money.)

Would you agree that one of the reasons we are seeing such a poor recovery and such a slump in housing is due to the unwillingness to make loans at rates that even a high school student would know is below real inflation rates? Especially when a lender is being asked to commit to a 30 year mortgage, collaterlized with assets that are declining in market value, for a return that is several points below real inflation rates today, to say nothing of the reasonable expectations that inflation will be going up in the future, not down.
--------------------

p.s., Here is a cheerful bit of trivia.... World debt (private and public) right now is about 140 trillion dollars.


Post 11

Saturday, June 4, 2011 - 11:03amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I agree with most everything you say. However, you wrote,
(Also, as [interest rates] are kept low, what started as a credit crunch turns into a shortage of those willing to loan because the interest rates are being kept lower than the inflation rate.)
There won't be a shortage of those willing to loan. They'll still be willing to loan; they'll just add the expected rate of inflation to avoid losing money when they are paid back in cheaper dollars. So if they want to get a 3% real rate of return on their money, and the expected inflation rate is 2%, they'll charge 5%. Longer-term loans will be higher, of course, because the risk of default is greater.



Post 12

Saturday, June 4, 2011 - 12:57pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I agree.

We see the interest rates that are charged by credit card companies, or pawn shops, or check-cashing outfits and they contrast so sharply with the Federal Funds rate that we might be tempted to chock it up exclusively to the differences in perceived risk or creditworthiness of the borrowers, but it is more than that.

On one side we have private lenders who are only willing to lend at rates that cover both risks due to defaults, but also to cover the cost of inflation. Whereas the closer one gets to the place that fiat money flows into the system, the lower the interest rate per unit of risk (while the money supply is still in the process of expanding). After the money supply has expanded, the price increase effect of the increased money supply will spread through the economy and will eventually be reflected in the amount of interest charged by the check-cashing place.

If regulations put a cap on what interest rates can be charged, then there will come a time when the business is willing to loan, but not when the cap would put them lower than what's needed to make a profit at that level of inflation.
-------------------------

You wrote, "There won't be a shortage of those willing to loan. They'll still be willing to loan; they'll just add the expected rate of inflation to avoid losing money when they are paid back in cheaper dollars. So if they want to get a 3% real rate of return on their money, and the expected inflation rate is 2%, they'll charge 5%. Longer-term loans will be higher, of course, because the risk of default is greater."

But there is something that is keeping people from getting loans on older houses when they have fairly good credit. This is what I hear is happening right now. Something is going on here, because if it were a case of free market economics no one would ever have to worry about getting a loan, they would just have to worry about how much their interest rate was going to be. If a person wanted to buy a fixer-upper that was 35 years old and they only had an average credit rating, they could go forward but maybe it would be with a requirement of 30% down and a 10% rate. But we don't see that happening. I can only conclude that it is because of a regulation or because the artificially cheap money that lenders can get their hands on opens better opportunities than mortagages.

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