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Post 0

Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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Ed, I assume you read this book.

Could you please elaborate this quote further?

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Post 1

Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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Sure, Luke:

The "Trust Game" referenced in the quote is a research game utilized in Game Theory research. In the book, Dr. Zak talks about how he ran one such study:

--All participants start by being awarded a $10 endowment (no strings attached)
--Half of the participants (the A-players) get the option to "trust" another participant (a B-player) with some of their money
--Whatever amount that is entrusted is automatically tripled by the researchers (and all players know this)
--The B-players have the option to offer a kick-back to the A-players, who entrusted them with some of their endowment in the first place

Zak says that 90% of folks he has studied entrust some of their endowment to the B-player, and 95% of these B-players return some of the windfall back to the A-players. He says that that defies rational self-interest because it involves trust and trustworthiness. What this means is that for Paul Zak and for John Nash (and nearly every Game Theory researcher, for that matter), the concept of rational self-interest does not involve either trust or trustworthiness.

According to them, someone operating out of rational self-interest will not work to build up trust and they will not become trustworthy -- but will instead work against others for some kind of short-sighted, narrow-minded, brutal-savage advantage. What a terribly-wrong concept of rational self-interest! These guys really need to read Rand.

Really.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 5/20, 9:32am)


Post 2

Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
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All sorts of financial firms operate on the idea of building and quantifying trustworthiness. Credit bureaus, insurance companies, etc. come to mind. That academics ignore this boggles the mind.

Post 3

Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

These egg-heads are often pragmatist, anti-integrators. Integrating all of the facts of the world is not their forte`. Instead, they operate with a myopic and concrete-bound intellectuality. Here's an analogy:

A child is examining a small section of sidewalk with a magnifying lense. He notices movement on the sidewalk and lo' and behold he witnesses ants. In his concrete-bound state -- [hehe: I just noticed that that is a pun] -- in his scrupulous examination of the concrete of the sidewalk, he begins to associate ants with sidewalks. Now, let's say you are witnessing this child and the child doesn't even know that you are there. Curiously, you take an earthworm and throw it into view of the child. Now, the child associates both ants and earthworms with sidewalks -- or perhaps ants and earthworms with each other.

The point is that the child does not know how to 'system-build' -- how to look at reality foundationally. How to organize concepts from very basic, foundational ones on up into less foundational ones. Instead of performing this mental work, the child just keeps looking through the magnifying lense -- looking harder, and harder, and harder, and harder. The child grows up to be a pragmatist and tells you his motto:
In order to know, you have to look.
The problem with this hyper-empiricism is that, beyond our perceptions, it is just as important to integrate our knowledge into a reality-corresponding, hierarchical system. In science, integration is as important as is perception -- though, because of current culture, you'd be hard-pressed to find popular, professional scientists who will tell you just that.

Ed

Post 4

Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 11:52amSanction this postReply
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What do you do to a culture when you reward gibberish with lavish praise?

I'm not talking about just the assertions of the Trust Game and the uncalibrated claims that the rigged[*] results are generally applicable to some myth called 'the' economy.

I'm talking about praising nonsense. As in, awarding Krugman a Nobel Prize in Economics for the observation "more than one nation can manufacture automobiles."

Ask yourself what the goal of such a movement is.

And then, when you realize what that goal is, stop trying to make sense out of gibberish because that goes nowhere.

regards,
Fred

[*]Whatever amount that is entrusted is automatically tripled by the researchers (and all players know this)

'automatically....and all players know this.'

What universe is this nonsense modeling?



Post 5

Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,

I recognize and understand your sense of dismay. Sometimes it's like researchers are little children, creating little models that have little to do with the world as we know it. They create the models because they like the models -- not because the models fit well with reality. Even so, there are nuggets of wisdom to be gained from such childish, creative modelling. Think of changing a kid's mind for the better (i.e., teaching a kid). The best way to do it is to utilize something that the kid is already focusing on. Let's say the kid is playing with GI Joes and he has the GI Joes turning on one another in a Hobbesian "war of all against all", himself declaring with Plautus that "man is wolf to man!" Now, to teach him civics or the proper morality for man, you might try using an appeal to the military code of justice or some other military code of behavior nestled in moral ideals.

For instance, you might say that GI Joes take an oath to defend each other's lives against aggression -- so that human peace and prosperity can ensue. The child immediately gets it. The learning is almost effortless because the GI Joes were the locus of consideration in the first place. You don't need to draw the child's attention away from his prior focus, you take the focus and you build on it. The point is that you utilize the point of focus or popularity -- the model -- to become an instrument of your own instruction of _________ . (mankind, or whatever). Let's take the Trust Game, for instance. How does it fail to correspond to reality? The 2 main places where it fails are:

1) everybody gets an endowment
2) entrusted money is always tripled

Now, in a market, not everyone gets an endowment -- but we can, to varying degrees, produce value to trade with one other. We can create something of baseline value that can be considered to be akin to the endowment. Also, when we trade, we don't always triple our value. Sometimes, the value is merely doubled, or increased only by half or only by a fourth. At the grocery store, I may only value a liter of bottled water just 50% more than I value a dollar (the market price of the water). In making the trade, I gain 50% on my dollar. I am better off (about 50% better off) with the bottle of water in my hand than I am with the dollar in my pocket. I go ahead and make the trade.

So the endowment represents the productive potential of humans, and the tripling represents the potential gains from trade. Those are real things. Humans really do have productive potential, and there really are gains to be had from trade. One of the findings in Zak's runs of the Trust Game is that folks return 41% of the windfall back to the original moneyholder. Keep in mind that choices are anonymous, so that if you stiff someone who entrusted you with some of their money -- they will not be able to identify you. A question to be asked is, if there are no reputational repercussions, how come everyone doesn't get stiffed? It's because folks want to perpetuate a system of trade to mutual benefit. There's more hope in that than in any alternative. In the long run, a participating individual has a lot to gain from such a system and this knowledge is accessible on different levels.

An even better game is the Public Goods game, where you each start with an endowment and then join one of two investment groups. It suffers from the same 2 drawbacks that the Trust Game does (endowments + guaranteed return-on-investments), but it is more realistic and it is better at modelling a market (or at least being a model of a corporation -- actually, of 2 corporations -- existing inside of a market):

Pooled (invested) money increases by some multiplication factor and is redistributed equally to each member after each round. You can choose to invest however much you want to -- you can even choose to be a free rider (not investing, but still collecting a check at the end of the round). One of the two groups (Group A) explicitly allows for freeloaders, and the other group (Group B) has an organized, but somewhat costly, means to punish them. If you run the game more than about 10 rounds or so, everyone eventually joins the group where the freeloaders are punished. Eventually, even the punishment stops because everyone learns that active exchange is better than passive-but-risky wealth-syphoning.

The moral of this story is that it's best to let humans trade freely and punish one another on a merit-based system of justice (the "Invisible Hand"). Everyone is better off when this is chosen -- and everyone eventually chooses this option (because they all learn that they become better off by "free trade"). So, if we let the markets "decide" who wins and loses -- if we let individual traders vote with their dollars -- everybody is better off. If, however, we decide not to give people the power-of-veto that free trade affords them -- if we force people to do business with others who may have low levels of merit (or produce items of low value) -- then we all suffer.

Game Theory, when viewed appropriately, shows that capitalism is our proper, social ideal.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 5/20, 1:13pm)


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Post 6

Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 4:39pmSanction this postReply
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Stuff like this reinforces my sense that physicists should not be viewed, or treated like philosophers. 

Post 7

Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 5:54pmSanction this postReply
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Tres,

I hope your view changes over time. It sounds pretty dismal to me. Like there's this group of self-reinforcing experts all talking to each other, and never listening to anyone but themselves (picture: Max Headroom). It's saddens me to think about that. In the old days, it was different. Philosophy and science were cozy bedfellows. The split is recent and, I hope, not permanent.

Both of my favorite philosophers said that philosophy is for everyone -- that it's everybody's business. This, they believed, is because you cannot escape having to think in principles when dealing with values and reality (i.e., when living). Now, to be clear, you can try. You can try to make it up as you go along, and then smash it down right after you built it up, and then lather, rinse, and repeat [I got that last phrase from Fred] -- never admitting to any principle of thought or action, or to any consistency of character.

I can't find the quote, but somewhere Rand once said that existentialists -- while they refer to themselves as being a type of philosopher -- are not really being philosophers, but only people in denial (intentionally attempting to reject philosophy, even though their lives depend on it). Peikoff said something just as fierce about pragmatists. Now, a lot of talking-head elites today are either one or the other. They are either existentialists or pragmatists. Only a few are objectivists, and fewer still are Objectivists. It's the way that the current of culture has flowed in this country in the last few decades. All people, physicists included, have some kind of a philosophy or worldview. Some people, physicists included, either reject that or are terribly wrong about it.

But I think that some of them can be reached. I think that some of the pretentious elites -- e.g., for instance, those declaring that reality doesn't exist, or that many exact copies of it simultaneously do, or that time can flow backward, or that contradictions can exist, or that rationally selfish behavior would look like a Mad Max movie, etc. -- I think that some of them will come-around, under the right provocation.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 5/20, 6:01pm)


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Post 8

Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 6:12pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Does that provocation require a cattle prod?

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Post 9

Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 6:15pmSanction this postReply
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That would be refreshing, because I'm sick to death of Stephan Hawking's grotesque opinions about human nature, hell, about the nature of life itself, being published as "profound" everywhere I look.

Rand wrote, "In the realm of cognition, the special sciences are the trees, but philosophy is the soil which makes the forest possible."  Way too many "special scientists" didn't get the memo.


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