RoR: Forum

"The Sanction of the Victim"?

Post 1

Monday, June 11, 2012 - 8:15am

He sells his movies because he has an audience, just like these "musicians" who rap about raping girls and killing cops have a market and get rich. He's telling losers what they want to hear.

"I'm the rope." Yeah, like cockroaches are going to take over the world.

Post 2

Monday, June 11, 2012 - 8:34am

Moore is right when he says, "...they don't believe in anything." Far too few businessmen have any sense of the moral nature of capitalism. Otherwise they'd be as disdainful of him as he is of them, but if they were principled, they wouldn't sell his garbage.

And whatever demand there is for his products is a simple measure of how badly the government educational system has done in teaching sound principles in economics or politics - to say nothing of critical thinking. A population properly educated would see him for the fool and liar that he is and not buy his garbage.

What Moore calls a flaw in capitalism, is a thing with two sides. One side is simply the freedom of speech, of assembly, and voluntary transactions - freedom he sees as a flaw. The other side of his so-called flaw is the ignorance that lets him peddle his lies. It is a flaw, but it arises more out of the government educational system, and our current culture, than out of capitalism.

It says alot for what he must want in capitalism's place. We know that tyranny's modus operandi is kill or imprison those who speaks out against them, and socialism is going to redistribute all the profits so there won't be any rich, so they aren't "flawed" like capitalism.

Post 3

Monday, June 11, 2012 - 1:04pm

SW:

"Moore is right when he says, "...they don't believe in anything." Far too few businessmen have any sense of the moral nature of capitalism."

and

"A population properly educated would see him for the fool and liar that he is and not buy his garbage."

Can't have it both ways. You think you might have over generalized your first statement? I think most "businessmen" don't think of MM at all. The ones he complains about the most are in the pockets of politicians or vice versa. Any effect MM might have actually enriches the people he most complains about. I wouldn't be surprised if he's perfectly aware of this fact. Nah, I won't give him that much credit...

Post 4

Monday, June 11, 2012 - 2:43pm

Hi Mike,

You are right that I was generalizing, and perhaps going to far, in using Moore's words "they don't believe in anything" - but there is a sad truth that most business men dont have a good grasp of the moral roots of capitalism. Nothing in my first statement you quoted implies that most business men think abou Moore. And he isn't complaining so much as he is pointed out that those businessmen who make money off of him tend not to have political beliefs.

Some of his financial supporters may be far leftists, but, like he says, many are just pursuing a profit and don't have a political position.

I don't see the conflict between the statement that too few businessmen grasp the moral nature of capitalism and the statement that our population hasn't received an education that would let them see Moore clearly.

Post 5

Monday, June 11, 2012 - 9:28pm

"there is a sad truth that most business men dont have a good grasp of the moral roots of capitalism."

Excepting the "businessmen" who revel in regulation and benefit by it having bought the politicians that produce it (ie: GE lobbying to outlaw incandescent bulbs because the alternatives net them a much larger profit margin) most businessmen display a very good grasp of the moral roots of capitalism by getting up and going to work every morning. The motivation to get up and go to work, to be productive, to be better off tomorrow than today, to strive rather than envy, this is what Michael Moore calls greed.

My guess as to what you're saying is, "most" businessmen aren't moral enough so they deserve a piece of crap like Michael Moore trying to destroy them and their capitalist system; if they were only "good" enough, "moral" enough, if they only agreed with Steve Wolfer more, then Michael Moore wouldn't be right, wouldn't be justified in what he says. But because they are at best ammoral, ignorant of all of Steve Wolfer's moral defenses of what they do they deserve a Michael Moore, they deserve for SW to say "Moore is right... they don't believe in anything."...immoral by default. I don't think they need a special education from Steve Wolfer or any moral justification for what they do except get up in the morning and get to work for what they perceive is their own benefit. The rule of law has been killed by regulation, that's what you should really be complaining about.

Michael Moore is not correct about anything. He is an ignorant immoral vicious piece of shit.

Post 6

Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 3:35am

Well, it's either that, or they believe he makes the left look like idiots, and the more a 'Michael Moore' is the voice of the left, the better.

Only from Michael Moore's POV would that seem ironic.

Post 7

Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 8:48am

Michael Moore wants to lecture America on the topic of 'enough...'

..unless the topic is pudding.

Post 8

Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 12:16pm

Mike, you and I agree on all of the fundamentals (We are both pro-capitalism, and pro-individual rights), but you misunderstood me... big time, and then you got downright ugly in your reply.

We disagree on this: You think that geting up, going to work, being productive, striving to be better off, etc., is the same as grasping (intellectually understanding) the moral roots of Capitalism. That's wrong. If most businessmen understood that rational individualism is the root of captialism and that altruism (and all of the collectivist forms it spawns) were immoral we would not have a Michael Moore, nor many of any problems from any other far left idiot.

You wrote,

My guess as to what [Steve is] saying is, "most" businessmen aren't moral enough so they deserve a piece of crap like Michael Moore trying to destroy them and their capitalist system

Clearly, this is an area where you shouldn't be making guesses. You toally misunderstand me!!!!!

I do NOT believe that someone failing to understand the moral nature of capitalism is the same as being immoral or ammoral. The vast majority of world is filled with good people who haven't yet had the good fortune to run across someone like Ayn Rand, or an articulate Libertarian.

I do NOT believe that anyone deserves a piece of crap like Michael Moore (except for his ardent supporters and fans). Why would I ever wish that kind of meaness on people who have done nothing wrong?

I did NOT say most businessmen are ammoral. I said that most businessmen don't believe in this or that political system within the context of doing business - I'm saying that most businessmen are NOT ideological. Most of them have nothing to do with government except to fill out forms, pay taxes, etc. and they are pragmatic in this area.

I'd much appreciate if you didn't put words in my mouth - especially when you do such a poor job. I have no idea of what I did to make you so pissed off at me, but at this point I also don't give a damn.

Post 9

Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 2:43pm

I think, cynically, that the 6 corporations that control all big media actually love Michael Moore. Michael Moore stands for more regulation, which benefits established businesses by creating a 'soft monopoly.' It is often that big business approaches the government and asks for "regulation." Mike's example of GE getting incandescent bulbs outlawed is an example of that. Michael Moore emotionally twists it to make capitalists appear like savage brutes who don't understand all of the functions of something as simple as "rope." Parody is his forte` -- it's how he makes his money. He makes his money via intentional mischaracterizations. Watch his movies closely.

You can see in the movies that things are put into the worst light possible (conservatives are caricatured as evil, thoughtless brutes). This is done even when it contradicts basic logic and 'common sense.' He's a professional muckraker/mudslinger.

Ed

Post 10

Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 9:31pm