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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
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Michael Stuart Kelly stopped talking to Andy Postema ...
That's regrettably true, Linz, but I'm confident that I'll be able to convince Michael of my charms in time.  If a curmudgeon like Adam thinks I'm redeemable, I don't doubt a generous soul like Michael can discover the same. ;-)
Serious point in all this: civility at the expense of justice is no virtue.
To also be more serious, I think we need to be OK with letting our toes get stepped on when passions are aroused.  After all, those toes aren't real toes.  They are the ego we pour into ideas we embrace.  Only words, not blows, have been exchanged.  No real harm can be done to each other in a forum like this.  Without harm, where's the offense?

I'm not promoting a license to be obnoxious.  It is worthwhile to be civil so long as it is in service to the virtue of benevolence.  But civility is only a means to benevolence.  Passion must not be sacrificed to it, as the "play-nice" sects of New Puritanism would demand of us.  (Phil:  I am not suggesting that you are doing this.  I'm speaking generally.)  We need to remember that an apology after stepping on toes is another means to benevolence, as is the patience to wait for one in lieu of a hue-and-cry of hurt feelings.

The Objectivist virtue of benevolence is the key to success here.  (Note how I now arise atop my soapbox to address all of you.)  Apply it the next time your toes get stepped on by a fellow SOLOist.  Instead of reducing your opinion of him to the vilest terms, consider the compliment paid to you.  What you said merited his passion.  Feel good about that rather bad about your toes.

Andy


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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

Will you look at what I posted about 10 minutes before reading this Executive Update?

LOLOLOLOL...

Dayaamm!

If I can only stop laughing... I wanna say... LOLOL... Daya... er... LOLOLOLOL...

(ahem)...

I would love to see an article by Philip Coates on Solo. (Really, I'm serious.)

But... but... but...

LOLOLOL...

On anything but Emily Post... LOLOLOLOLOLOL...

(tears running down)

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 9/01, 9:20am)


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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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Civilization began when the first person hurled an insult instead of a rock. (I don't know the author.)

That being said (first time I ever used that phrase!), one can react strongly to an opinion without attacking the person.

I good counter-argument will do much more good in intellectual combat than a harsh word. I argued with a Marxist and demolished his position. I think that my approach gained some converts among the listeners and probably hurt his feelings more than an insult would have. Hurling an insult would've compromised my power to sway those around me.

Passion is great (a have a bit of it myself) but I don't think that it's a license for a loss of self-control.



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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 10:04amSanction this postReply
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Marty,
Passion is great (a have a bit of it myself) but I don't think that it's a license for a loss of self-control.
Agreed, but we don't always behave ideally.  So unless genuine malice is involved, the virtue of benevolence allows us to cut each other slack when there are missteps in conduct.

Andy


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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 1:30pmSanction this postReply
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Phil is not a boring ol' fart! :cp   Phil has fans!

(But I certainly agree that he ought to write more stellar aritcles)


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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
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This was the first executive update to give me an extended belly-laugh!

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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I second that, Teresa!

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Post 7

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 4:39pmSanction this postReply
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Linz’ update is hilarious. I have no doubt Phil sees it that way, too.

I third Teresa and Laure, I’m a Phil fan. I read every word he puts up here. He’s concise and articulate, a pleasure to read. I think that his points about civility and benevolence have been absorbed by many here—more than they wish to admit (who wants to be seen agreeing with the Fart?)

Phil has been motivated, in his civility urgings, by a desire to save a good site from what he believes has been the cause of the demise of other good objectivist sites. It’s hard for me to get too annoyed with him, knowing that. As it happens, I do not agree with Phil about the need to impose civility. I am glad he’s been blown off. Solo will remain the Wild West, I’m glad. Liberty is messy, but so what?

Obviously, Phil wants civility in dealings with him. Tibor is the same way. Stepping on the throats of those who breach this expectation is (and will be) fun! Other people here enjoy a bar fight. Across-the-board-civility rules would unfairly deny this latter group the back-and-forth bitch-slappings they clearly relish.

Gently, and with humor, Linz has told Phil that the harping ends now. Now that Phil knows this, civility demands that he let it go, (except for funny-making, of course.) I don’t see any reason this cannot work. Some of us want civility, some of us want to hit and be hit. So we keep clear who’s who, we look out for one another—works for me.

Jon

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 5:53pmSanction this postReply
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Jon-
Good post.  Sanction.


Post 9

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 5:59pmSanction this postReply
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Prissyholic.

LOL

Linz,

Thanks for this gem in-between being bogged down by work.


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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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> Linz has told Phil that the harping ends now. Now that Phil knows this, civility demands that he let it go, [Jon]

I'm pretty burned out on the subject and I think I've begun to get repetitious a bit (hence Linz's comment of 'boring' could very well be right...)

But I think I'd prefer Michael's "the Emily poster" to "prissyholic". Although prissyholic is funny enuff that I might get a T-shirt made, size Xtra Large to fit my ego.

:-)

Phil

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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

Bonk.

Michael


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Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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"who wants to be seen agreeing with the Fart?" [Jon]

You have to watch out who you are keeping company with. There are people at ARI and TOC among my network of spies who will only meet with me in an underground parking lot and who have to wear a towel to muffle their voices...

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Post 13

Thursday, September 1, 2005 - 9:59pmSanction this postReply
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Hahahaha, Linz, your posts are always a lark, but this was one of your best yet. And I'm glad to see that Phil has taken it in the spirit it was intended, as Linz had hoped he would.

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Post 14

Friday, September 2, 2005 - 3:02amSanction this postReply
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Phil-Phart: Good on you for being such a good sport. :-) And I expect to see the Prissyholic T-Shirt at SOLOC 5!

I especially liked Andy's response to Marty's stricture that passion is not a license for the loss of self-control (no one here says it is; just that it shouldn't be a federal issue if folk do lose their rag occasionally—more important to look at why they do):

... we don't always behave ideally.  So unless genuine malice is involved, the virtue of benevolence allows us to cut each other slack when there are missteps in conduct.

That should be emblazoned across the sky! :-)

Linz

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