RoR: Forum

Passion or coincidence once prompted Sharon to say...

Are you as young as you seem; or is this an old photo?

26 candles, they're still warm.

I admire your tenacity; your heart is in the right place.

Thankyou. I take full credit for putting it there.

It's regretful that you heard scorn in my voice. I, obviously need a script writer. Thanks for the heads up.

Bah, you're alright. Erickson is uncharacteristically sour. And the Mother Teresa thing doesn't impress Objectivists- she's an icon of selflessness.

Do you have issues with injustice that are speaking to you? Think of the injustice of those corrupt politicians who want to live like the queen of England; at the expense of their constituents. Do you really want to give them one more penny?

I did not watch the Live8 DAY. But I imagine it to have been like a Spielberg movie manipulating the emotions of the spectators who are ashamed of the way they live their lives; and therefore feel that they should do something to help. This is a beginning; but I thought we had moved beyond that. Will those feelings inspire acts of true benevolence?

I do feel very strongly about injustices on so many levels. What I know about the state of the world weighs on me when I make principled decisions- ie every time I make any decision!

I think you know what I'm saying about Live Aid, particularly that there's much more to it than as fundraiser for African Hitlers.

You're wrong about the Live8 experience, it was really just a super big rock concert with a theme. Bob's boys are really just selling rock and passing it off as support for Bob's policies, I tend to think. The million man march experience is like one big party and there are plenty of reasons to go to a party besides Bob's Africa policy papers. I'm wondering how the rock celebs, who can hardly back out of marching themselves, are going to save themselves from their fans. Will they have a million-manpower body guard corps along too? Guess we'll find out in the news tonight or real soon.

Don't ever take your heart off of your sleeve, Rick. The cynical will never be agents of change. Do give me a call.

I'm a professional cynic but my heart's not in it. We'll talk about this stuff again some time.

Keep your elephants away from your mice, TTFN

Post 21

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 7:09am

Rick,

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback. What elephants are you talking about? The ones that live in 10.000 hectre game parks? I'm amazed at the prices tourists will pay to see the Big Five Favourite Wild Animals. You get in an overlander and are driven through a convoluted track slighly out of site of nearby twists and turns; while a crew of "invisible beaters" drive the beasts across your path. Very exciting, unless you've been to the zoo.

Just for fun, look into the details of your earliest recollection of that feeling of injustice, if you haven't already done that work. Talk out loud to the unjust one with both barrels of your adult voice; and see how that makes you feel afterwards. big big sigh?

Sharon

Post 22

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 8:12am

"Erickson is uncharacteristically sour."

I can't get a fix on Sharon. She's as slippery as an eel. Impossible to miss her as she posts everywhere on solo.

You're right, I'm not a fan of Mother Teresa, nor do I admire pacifism as a principle irregardless of context. I also admire extraordinary people from anywhere regardless of background. The bushman in "The Gods must be Crazy" is one of my heros.

Post 23

Wednesday, July 6, 2005 - 10:46am

Mike, Is there something you've been meaning to ask? Sharon

Post 24

Thursday, July 7, 2005 - 2:47am

"Mike, Is there something you've been meaning to ask? Sharon "

I have no questions. You have set off my alarms with your altruism, your pacifism, and your characteristic Canadian smugness. But I will not bother with you. Others here can make of you what they will.

Post 25

Thursday, July 7, 2005 - 4:57am

Just for fun, look into the details of your earliest recollection of that feeling of injustice, if you haven't already done that work. Talk out loud to the unjust one with both barrels of your adult voice; and see how that makes you feel afterwards. big big sigh?

Nope, still unsatisfied. Perhaps those who cannot sigh cannot rest.

Well, the hours-old terrorism in London is the latest part of the G8/Live 8 story. The tone has changed from rock-musical to something even more demanding of attention. I think it would be very good politics now especially for the G8 folk to make G8 count for something. However, Tony Blair just said (from memory) "We will still have the talks we were going to have and STILL REACH THE CONCLUSIONS WE WERE GOING TO REACH." Possible slip?

Staying tuned...

Post 26

Thursday, July 7, 2005 - 6:04am

Mike,

To become an Objectivist; is to achieve smugness; to have found one's highest values and delights.

I came onto this site, to get some verification; or not; of my understandings of Objectivism. If your assessment of me is accurate; then I have to think that I have arrived.

It has never been my intention to emulate, as quoted by Michael Marotta on another thread, "a disembodied argument machine, a dynamo of pure intellect". Also, I do not consider my "philosopher's humanity to be an inconvenience". I am convinced that it is a necessity to a quality human life. What you are calling altruism, I call empathy.

In feeling the pain and suffering of others; I must act in their best interests, as I act in my own. Altruism is for the Guilty. I am guilty of nothing; except, perhaps, seeing too much; the burden of the artist.

I am a pacifist; in that I have so much respect and confidence in the power of the human mind; that to engage another in physical battle is a moral embarassment, an assault on one's own intellect; an admission of intellectual bankruptcy. I'm not sending my body back into battle until my mind has been thoroughly humbled.

I have inherited a strong sense of injustice from my inner child; and until I find the tools for relieving that itch; I shall be proudly scratching my way through life. I am what I am; and I am very comfortable in my skin.

My Gawd! I just heard there's been terrorist bombings in London, England. Another manifestation of moral bankruptcy. I hope Marcus is safe.

Post 27

Thursday, July 7, 2005 - 6:37am

I hope Marcus is safe.

Thank you for your concern Sharon. I am fine.
See:
http://solohq.org/Forum/NewsDiscussions/0829.shtml#10

Don't worry about Mike, in my opinion he is talking bullshit. What you display is benevolence, and that is what objectivism is all about. Unfortunately, many Objectivists confuse that with selfless altruism.

The tone has changed from rock-musical to something even more demanding of attention.

A group associating themselves with Al Qaeda has taken responsibility. I am more sad than angry at the moment. However, the anger is building.

Post 28

Saturday, July 9, 2005 - 4:00pm

Sharon,

Is this what you mean:

"smug - marked by excessive complacency or self-satisfaction; "a smug glow of self-congratulation""

I guess this is slightly more acceptable for objectivists when contemplating their chosen philosophy than Canadians when congratulating themselves on their pacifism and wonderful health care systems.

You say:

"I do not consider my "philosopher's humanity to be an inconvenience"."

As long as you don't consider your "philosopher's 'reason'" to be an inconvenience either.

I accept your assertion that your empathic and artistic nature motivates you to help other people. But please don't make a profession out of trying to make people who have a different nature feel guilty because they don't feel the same way as you. Regardless, most of what people achieve is by their own efforts and not the effort of their "helpers". That is not to say that a helping hand is not the right thing to do sometimes. I'm not one of those who never gave a dime to someone who asked for it.

You say:

"I am a pacifist; in that I have so much respect and confidence in the power of the human mind; that to engage another in physical battle is a moral embarassment, an assault on one's own intellect; an admission of intellectual bankruptcy. I'm not sending my body back into battle until my mind has been thoroughly humbled."

There is an error in your reasoning on this. Few people are cut out to engage in physical battle with others. It takes a strong will and a certain degree of physical prowess and the courage to think well in dangerous situations. No one expects you personally to engage anyone else in battle whether it be a terrorist or an ordinary criminal of whatever sort. You should have the courage to try to defend your life if necessary however. But, in your assertions about the power of reason to solve human differences you are forgetting those who have travelled so far down the path of unreason that they are truly unreachable by your reason. In this case the only action that reason can suggest is that capable people engage these people to prevent their murderous activities. This can sometimes be the ONLY RECOURSE reasonable people can turn to. When you continue to assert "moral embarrassment" and "intellectual bankruptcy" in these cases you are insulting the reasonable people that have been forced to make these decisions and the warriors who carry them out. Remember, NO ONE IS ASKING YOU TO FIGHT. Simply respect what has to sometimes be done and the very brave people do it.

Post 29

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 6:33am

Mike,

Thanks for coming back into the fray. This is an example of what I'm trying to illuminate; by coming back, over and over and over opposers make themselves available for finding common ground; and thus avoiding physical war.

First, I want to make it clear that I am not a statist; what my government does; is not necessarily with my permission. I am against that money pit called OHIP. What used to be dealt with at home, now requires a specialist, medical practitioner, etc, etc. etc.

If Americans paid as much attention to Canada; as Canadians pay attention to Americans, it would be more widely known that there is virtually no "Canadian Identity". We are a multicultural country, founded on two solitudes; and unlike the US; we don't know yet, what we're going to be when we grow up. We're open to suggestions; and we take the good and adopt it to our existing way of life. As a Canadian, that's who I am. Ask another Canadian; and you'll get a completely different answer; and it's all right with both of us. Homogenization is not our goal; the elusive peace and good government, is.

As to my prosyletizing, if I believe that I've found something wonderful; something that would bring a higher sense of life and more peace of mind to talented, privileged, retired individuals; why should I keep it to myself; and deprive them of my "wisdom"? Wallowing in ignorance is always an option; but not nearly as much fun. One of the purposes of an artist is to afflict the comfortable. You had the choice to ignore me; but something is nagging at you to "set me right"; or to hear the words that will let the penny drop for you.

When Born Again Christian Fundamentalist George Bush sends his young to Iraq for questionable reasons; using ineffective means that has degenerated into what has become the equivalent of swatting house flies and getting bitten by deer flies, and of course, with poor results; he needs to be called to task for committing a moral bankruptcy. All means of communication were not exhausted. Has that Born Again Christian Fundamentalist George Bush had any fierce dialogue with any Middle Eastern Leaders? He hasn't had a fierce conversation with any prime minister of Canada; it's beneath him to talk with such nobodies. He converses with sycophants. He'd rather do his talking on the battlefield using other people's children as cannon fodder. Has America's government become so powerful that decent people are afraid to stand up and call him to task? If there are traitors to American ideals; Born again Christian Fundamentalist George Bush leads the list. I'm not shouting at you Mike; I'm shouting at him. Do you think that hackers corrupted the voting machines?

With this jaded view of North American life; I have discovered a way to rise above all that; by going to South Africa and finding volunteers who are willing to line up to get a share my talents. It's great fun; and self-perpetuating.

Sharon

Post 30

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 1:01pm

He'd rather do his talking on the battlefield using other people's children as cannon fodder.

I have to disagree with Sharon. Sending a voluntary army to war is not "using other people's children as cannon fodder". And the scum terrorists are now using the Iraq war as an excuse to kill more people.

However, Bin Laden and his cronies were killing innocent civilians long before the Iraq war. No need to engage murders like that in dialogue!

Post 31

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 8:27pm

Marcus,

The terrorists are using their disdain for the western way of life as the reason for their terrorism. They see America in Iraq as an oil grab that will promote more westernization; and they want none of it. Does "Yankee go home" have a familiar ring to it? Their fundamentalism is at the root cause.

The Junior Born Again Christian Fundamentalist George Bush is the second reason. His fundamentalism views Islam as the permanent enemy of Christianity; and he's got the Bible to prove it.

Middle Eastern Terrorism Bin Laden Style, grew in a milieu of active or benign complicity; and it will take the combined efforts of religious and political leaders in such countries as : Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Palestine, Iran to bring it to heel. Who will provide the necessary leadership?

I hope that you and your family can remain safe.

Post 32

Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 9:15pm

Marcus,

The young men and women who enlisted in the US military did so for patriotic reasons to defend their country. Many, from poor families, had a Hobson's choice to enlist and get an education; or have no education at all. Now they find themselves in a situation that; because of their leader, Junior Born Again Christian Fundamentalist George Bush, who appears to be the mouthpiece for some corporate hegemony; brings dishonour and scorn to their country. This illegal pre-emptive invasion is not what they signed up for. I use "cannon fodder" as a means of showing the low regard with which I think JBACFGB holds his troups. A job for which he once held; and perhaps still does; a superficial regard.

Strong words? I see Vietnam all over again. Who, outside the US thinks its military should stay in Iraq?
The fact that this mess was predicted more than two years ago, makes it all the more tragic.

Post 33

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 2:40am

The Junior Born Again Christian Fundamentalist George Bush is the second reason.

The first bombing of the WTC (6 people killed) happened when Clinton was still in office. So too was the US embassy bombing in Kenya (219 people killed). Both bombings were carried out by Muslim extremists. Bush is just an excuse!

Strong words? I see Vietnam all over again.

Completely different. The Iraqis have a deposed dictator and a newly elected democratic Government. The US and British forces are still there at the Iraqi Government's request.

Many, from poor families, had a Hobson's choice to enlist and get an education; or have no education at all...This illegal pre-emptive invasion is not what they signed up for.

Why do you assume that anyone that signs up for the US army is ignorant or stupid? Why illegal? Because international leftists say so? Wasn't the breaking of sanctions and non-compliance by Saddam also illegal by international standards?

Post 34

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 5:28am

The bombings in New York and Kenya were not listed as reasons for invading Iraq. They are red herrings, used now, to try and cloud the memories of those who advised against invading Iraq. Junior Born Again Fundamentalist George Bush made the decision to send in troups against the advice of most of the world. The Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists know this; and are trying to send the US military home. They want no westernization of their part of the world. They do not want Middle Eastern oil filling the pockets of some hegemony; and they will die to the last man preventing it.

I withdraw "cannon fodder" as being too confrontational. I'm trying to draw attention to the fact that well-intentioned ordinary US citizen-soldiers are now being victimized by their military leaders who appear to have ineffectual strategies. I have not said that US soldiers are ignorant and stupid; I am trying to illustrate that their "leaders" lie to them; and thus bring dishonour to their work, when Born Again Christian Fundamentalist George Bush Junior is shown to have false premises.

It's the same unwinable Vietnam situation; and the foot soldiers will reap the frustrations produced by this soon to become very pointless "war". The traditional military cannot defeat terrorists. Most of those who have died in this invasion are civilians, with no clear links to Islamic terrorism. The intelligent intelligence lacks sufficient skill and knowledge to find Bin Laden; and has advised the almost complete destruction of an entire country in order to capture ONE TYRANT, and put an elected leader in his place. AMAZING LEADERSHIP

If this means that I have become a leftist; I wear this badge proudly. My information and premises will not permit any other stand.

Post 35

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 10:24am

The bombings in New York and Kenya were not listed as reasons for invading Iraq.

I never said they were. I mean't that the Iraq war used as "the" excuse for islamic terrorism is a "red herring".

George Bush made the decision to send in troups against the advice of most of the world.

So what? If the US had always followed advice from the rest of the world, they would probably be communist by now.

The Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists know this; and are trying to send the US military home. They want no westernization of their part of the world. They do not want Middle Eastern oil filling the pockets of some hegemony; and they will die to the last man preventing it.

So what? Better the money go to a "greedy" oil company than a murderous Dictator or an Ayatollah dictatorship!

Why should I care what the Islamic terrorists want? Fuck them!

It's the same unwinable Vietnam situation; and the foot soldiers will reap the frustrations produced by this soon to become very pointless "war".

So basically your point is: if you can't win the war, then don't try to do anything. To depose a dictator, introduce a democratic Government with it's own "rights-bearing" constitution is all a waste of time - because we can't handle terrorists - so don't bother trying.

That's nihilism, but you don't actually believe it.

I could just as well write: Africa is corrupted and fucked over by the Governments there. Don't try to introduce any sort of improved education. Replace tribalism with individualism? Are you crazy? It wont change. Move on. It is futile.

I am sure you would disagree with that argument, as I do.

Post 36

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 11:24am

We do have spots on this planet that is less developed than others. The types of government they have now, is the types of government we had hundreds of years ago. They will evolve, however slow a process that might be. There will always be places that are less developed than others... two thousand years ago the good romans came to 'rescue' the british, before that Iraq (or the babylonian empire that was there at the time) rescued the Assyrians, two thousand years from now it will be another place, that will need to have robotocracy or whatever because that is the most human thing of the day... i can understand a wish to help other people, but imposing your own way of life on them as if it was the only right one, forcing a democracy on a country with so many groups with so strong and different opinions, is leaving that country dysfunctional. A weak democracy with impossible alliances - making a majority votes so small that its ridiculous. But so what let's liberate them, let's help them by bombing them and remove their food, then at least we are trying something.

Life is not fair for all. And some people were so strongly against this that they tried a new system where all man should be equal...all people had equal social and economic status and rights. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. That too was a nice idea, but it just didnt really work.
(Edited by S�ren Olin
on 7/11, 11:30am)

Post 37

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 11:42am

I can understand a wish to help other people, but imposing your own way of life on them as if it was the only right one, forcing a democracy on a country with so many groups with so strong and different opinions, is leaving that country dysfunctional.

60% of Iraqis turned out to vote, risking life and limb to do so. Polls have consistently shown that the majority of Iraqis want the allies to stay in their country and that they are happy to be rid of Saddam.

Hardly forced into democracy. Hardly divided in their opinion about whether or not they choose the allies over Saddam or the terrorists.

Gawd. You guys just spin and spin, don't you? You have swallowed the anti-war rhetoric hook, line and sinker.

Post 38

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 12:12pm

Marcus,

I am, and have always been maintaining that intellectual weapons are the effective ones. See post 30 above, suggesting that the collective will of the political and spiritual leaders in the Middle East be activated to find a solution to their problems.

I am a teacher; intellectual collateral is my stock in trade; to use brute force before exhausting every single other alternative known to humankind; and sincerely proving that all of them are truly ineffective; is the least I can do to prove to those who have volunteered to put their lives on the line for my personal safety; that I am worthy of trust and will be sending them, as the very last resort, into honourable battle.

Bring on the evidence that this due dilligence was done before invading Iraq.

My brother, the civil engineer once told me, on another matter; when a hammer is your only tool, everything gets fixed with a nail. In this case a coffin nail.

Is there really no world leader to come forward and get these kindergarten babies to talk with one another? It's a disgrace that in 2005 we are as barbaric as we were 10000 years ago. You can educate them; but you sure can't make them smart.

I'm waiting for the day that they call a war ; and no body comes.

Post 39

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 2:51pm