RoR: Forum

Marcus,

Education is peacebuilding by another name. Well-fed properly educated children do not grow up thinking that terrorism is their only hope. That's why it's so important to help African people who are on the cusp of moving forward. They must not be abandoned to languor in helplessness and hopelessness; from traditional tribalism and repressive government policies.

Isn't this a given? How could a child grow up to adopt Objectivist ideals without a sound education, first in early childhood, and on into young adulthood?

Terrorists are desperate discouraged people, whose ideas are not taken seriously. Each day that we pompously refuse to engage them in fierce conversations is another day for the seeds of anger and discontent to be watered. They are using the internet to fan the flames of their rage; and to motivate other impressionable young people, whose lives have been ruined by the invasion in Iraq. They have nothing to lose; this was clearly obvious before the invasion two years ago. Remember the "Lord of the Flies". There is no end to the mayhem that uncontrolable mobs of young people; who have no life, and no future; can wreak on those whom they despise. Walk in their shoes for the past 20 years; and imagine where you would be today.

They are not a disease; they are human beings whose lives have been ruined by an accident of birth. Their teachers failed them; and we are going to suffer for decades. Anger on our part will accomplish nothing, but more of the same.

What weapons of mass destruction?

When did the serious negotiations take place? Angry sanctions alone will not work. Education is prime. I can't repeat it often enough. One day it will sink in; and someone will have the ears to hear. Thankfully, I'm an optimist. Tomorrow is another day.

Post 41

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 4:34pm

S�ren,-

but imposing your own way of life on them as if it was the only right one, forcing a democracy on a country with so many groups with so strong and different opinions, is leaving that country dysfunctional

Civilisation is a somewhat broad way of life mankind enjoys from time to time, and so is health. Everybody agrees that a healthy mind and body are good values which transcend the class of "groups" and "different opinions" one might share in. To impose health on a man it is not enough to force him and brutalise him, one must appeal to his reason and volition so that good habits become his own.

Why might we not impose civilisation on men in the same way and think of this not as being disfunction?

Life is not fair for all. And some people were so strongly against this that they tried a new system where all man should be equal

But man's nature has many properties and those reformers sought to equalise the wrong attributes of his nature. As you say, it was done for the sake of fairness but their fairness was a misconception. It is not unfair that men love and hate after different objects, that their palets suit other flavours on other days, that men desire sometimes arts and sometimes sciences, that work tasks are best enjoyed and accomplished by some and not others, that some men like living in the cold and others in the warm, that not all men desire the same woman or all woman the same man. Not being unfair, there is no need for equalising.

For life, in terms of first philosophy, there is no 'fair', there is only 'do' or 'do not'. To restate this in the language of the senses- life is fair, is happiness, is lived in a benevolent universe. I think it's fundamental that you should know that.

Post 42

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 5:10pm

Marcus,

Are you suggesting that a retired kindergarten teacher has the power to make improvements in the Middle East; and that I should abandon my work in South Africa? Fasten a ball and chain to his leg and I'll put him to work.

It would be great fun to sit down with Saddam Hussein for a few weeks. I'd love to find out where he got such ideas. I think that it would be instructive to let him onto this site. Why should he be permitted to relax in his quiet cell?

That rehabilitation scene from A Clockwork Orange just flew into my mind. I feel the mania rising, time to go.

Post 43

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 5:16pm

Marcus - you are dead on in your defense of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. However, I believe Sharon has a good point, in that the causes of terrorism are ultimately the disconnectedness she describes. However, Sharon, you must understand that there are times when nothing but a war or an intervention will work (also, just say "Bush" it is annoying to describe him as you do and it doesn't do your arguments any favors).

For example, there is simply no way that any reasonable dialogue can take place with a man like Kim Jung Il. His regime makes Iran look like a democracy. Millions of people are starving, and those who survive are smaller and mentally deficient as adults because of a dangerous lack of nutrition. The country is literally a hell-hole. The only reason it still exists is because China chooses to use it as a foil against the US. This could change, and one way or another Kim has to go, by whatever means necessary. What will it accomplish? It will save millions from slavery, it will save us from an extremely unstable dictator with nukes, and it will eventually create a unified Korea that be much stronger as an economic partner as well as his end helping to forever heal the US-China rift.

So a whole lot of self-interest and benevolence is at stake, not only to the people alive now, but to all those unborn who would otherwise either die or live as slaves to Kim's whimsy, and all those who could die if he sets off his nukes (or gives them to terrorists). That is what is at stake there, and issues in the Middle East are similar in concept though different in their dynamics. What won't it be - it will not be a difficult war, but it will be a very tough peace, just like in Iraq.

S�ren, Keep in mind no one "chose" Saddam or Kim Jung Il, so to say that there is an "imposition" of Western values is absurd, there was already an imposition by say 5% of the people at most on the other 95% (probably more like .01% for North Korea). To say people are "not ready" or "incapable" is cynical racism of the worst sort. That is exactly what most people are ready for - to live the good life being connected to the rest of the world has to offer. Their rage and frustration is being tapped by evil individuals in order to maintain their control and their little empires, be they dictatorial or religious, their goal is for a small elite (them) to maintain control over the populace.

Once again, as an objectivist I want to point out where I am coming from:

1. It is in our self-interest to defeat Terrorism
2. Terrorism won't be defeated by a "firewall" or by defense only, it will require intervention of various kinds over a fairly lengthy period of time.
3. It is in our self-interest to have more people we can trade with (to sell to, to buy from, and to invest in, not to mention any brilliant ideas lost forever because someone who could have been great was instead murdered - as in Kira).
4. Both can be accomplished by the end of the century.

Post 44

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 5:41pm

How could a child grow up to adopt Objectivist ideals without a sound education, first in early childhood, and on into young adulthood?

I never disputed the value of good education. It nutures the individual.

But there is also value in good law enforcement, defence and justice. They protect indivduals from thugs after they have been nutured.

Each day that we pompously refuse to engage them in fierce conversations is another day for the seeds of anger and discontent to be watered.

Eh? Why is it my duty to engage them? Do I have sacrifice my time to the evil ideas of everyone else on this planet? If they can't work out that murder is evil, they are too far gone anyway! Those that commit evil acts must be brought to justice, no two ways about it!

It would be great fun to sit down with Saddam Hussein for a few weeks.

Saddam is reportedly as barmy as a fig tree at the moment. From his jail cell he still thinks that he is the President and in charge of Iraq. Good luck with that :-)

Post 45

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 6:06pm

Kurt,

Born Again Christian Fundamentalist President George Bush Junior is a great thorn in my side; and every time I jab his name out with my two pointer fingers; I imagine that I am jabbing him in the shoulders. If my arguments are so weak that using the man's full descriptive name render them impotent; they can't be worth much. He should be known by the baggage he carries. Gawd! there he is on the radio again, "only one course of action".

I'm sorry that you mentioned China. That is another moral dilemma; because profit is blinding people to the regime that permits inexpensive goods to enter North America. That country is a very serious threat for the future; and the whole world is selling its soul to the communist devil. Why don't we show some collective backbone? Communism in western Europe failed because of poor economics; it will continue to flourish in China, because of our complicitness, and our corporate hegemony.

I cannot in good conscience purchase things imported from China; but, in order to provide certain educational materials to South Africa; I have had to compromise my morals and support companies who outsource the manufacturing of these products to China. It galls me no end to have to do this. When I express my dismay; I get either a shrug, or no response whatever, to my letters.

Oil from Iraq/Toys from China; two horns of the same dilemma.

Post 46

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 9:11pm

Well, Sharon, Canada is not helping much by allowing known Al Quaeda into their borders willingly. What kind of effort is that? In WW II, Canada made a great effort for such a small country to help win the war against Fascism. What happened to their spirit? Will they just cave in and allow the Islamists to take over without a fight?

Profit is blinding people - hmmm... maybe instead, profit is blinding the communists to buy themselves right out of communism instead. The government in China is Communist in name only. It will DEFEAT them, not help them, and peacefully, which is what I thought you would want. How can you work in South Africa, which has a communist running the country, and claim some moral superiority by not buying goods from hard working Chinese people? They are not all communists getting the benefits, because the living standards of many people there are getting better and better, creating a middle class. Their connection to the internet can't be controlled, despite the best efforts of the government. They are no longer a significant danger to anyone - they could be, but so could France, and I doubt it will happen because it makes bad business.

If that idiot Mbeki wasn't running South Africa, maybe their economy would be running along nicely like China's. He ran the ANC (which was communist), his parents were communists, he was educated in Moscow by communists, oh and the best one is when he says that AIDS is not caused by a virus. He isn't all bad, he could be Mugabe, but frankly I would rather live in China than South Africa.

Post 47

Monday, July 11, 2005 - 10:42pm

You obviously haven't read Duesberg's book, have you...

Post 48

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 2:54am

Some might want to believe that citizen Bush occupied Iraq out of nothing but love to the Muslim World, oh what a happy thought. Thinking happy thoughts, and the lost boys can just fly in there - who needs a hook.

It's no flash in the pan, give them liberty and give them death. Let's accept the use of physical force in retaliation against these foreign invaders of personal freedom - well, no, not our freedom, but still... let freedom of others transcend our own self-interest, let us Impose our right ideas on them by physical force, let us put a gun against their head and tell them to be free.

Let the Titans revolt against the false Gods of the Arab World. Hallelujah Chevron oil is thicker than blood, Hallelujah Carlyle, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Halliburton.

All actions will, when split in pieces, contain fragments of good - noble thoughts and deeds, acts of heroism. The fall of Saddam Hussein, as a direct result of the occupation, is clearly a joy to nearly everybody but the cruel dictator himself, but the price can just never justify that deal. When freedom is paid with freedom and more it is an irrational deal, a commodity people will buy, only with a gun to their head.

"In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit."

Post 49

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 10:31am

If that idiot Mbeki wasn't running South Africa, maybe their economy would be running along nicely like China's. He ran the ANC (which was communist), his parents were communists, he was educated in Moscow by communists, oh and the best one is when he says that AIDS is not caused by a virus. He isn't all bad, he could be Mugabe, but frankly I would rather live in China than South Africa.

Good point Kurt. Although false dichotomy, I wouldn't like to live in China or South Africa.
But I know what you mean. China is definitely headed towards a more capitalist economy - which in turn has given more freedom to the Chinese people. We can only hope that this process continues.

Post 50

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 7:19pm

Kurt,

Sorry, I had to go off to my other life.

I agree it is unfortunate that we have the Mother and sisters of that Al Quaeda criminal in Canada; and troublesome too, that in the past the Canadian government has unwittingly supported them. They have had their passports suspended and they are being kept under surveillance. I don't know what else is going on; but as Canadian citizens who have committed no overt crimes, they have to be treated like everybody else; innocent until proven guilty.

I am astonished that you liken the totalitarianism of China to the socialist tendencies of South Africa. Freedom is a process; and the personal freedom of South Africans has to be further along the continuum than that of the Chinese. I have never been to China; but I have been back and forth to South Africa over the past 10 years; and absolutely, the Mbeki government is far from perfect. Considering it is only 11 years into its democratic state, the situation is remarkably good; when you compare it to almost any other young democracy.

As for Canada having lost its spirit; I have tried to illustrate the direction in which our country is pointed. We have more modest goals than USA. I am not a student of politics; and I am short on details about other countries; thus, I have exhausted my store of arguments. WWII was probably just a blip.

Post 51

Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 8:30pm

Good luck to you Sharon, I am sure you are doing good work there that is much needed and appreciated.

I don't think the Chinese are Totalitarian, but rather Authoritarian (which isn't great, either, but they are not like Kim Jung Il, who is the former). In any case, what I am rather trying to say is that you should not judge them so harshly when you have not been there - just as I went somewhat overboard in what South Africa is like. It is easy enough to find all these negative points about what things are like in a Nation, but the reality is that there are so many individuals there, too, just like anywhere else, with their pros and cons.

Post 52

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 3:00am

Thank You Kurt for your understanding; I knew that if we talked long enough we would find SOME common ground. I agree with you about the differences in China and Korea ( is it north or south); but I'm really very ignorant about that part of the world.

Others, who hold in their hands, power over the world; must have the same tenacity. As we have done; the ranting and the raving must be ploughed through before verbal combattants can get to the crux of the problem that affects not only them; but in some cases, every citizen in the world.

What is the sense of becoming the best one can be; if doing the best one can do, is not on the agenda? You are still young Kurt; but you are much more developed than I was at your age. In fifty years, who knows what will be important to you?

Sharon

Post 53

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 4:10am

Marcus,

Of course you wouldn't want to go to China or South Africa; YOUR personal goals could not be advanced there; unless you needed a huge workforce to do rote-work. In fifty years when you retire from your laboratory; you may recall this conversation; and initiate your own little project in some part of the still-developing world.

You, at the beginning of your life, have already far-surpassed me, near the end of my life. It is inconceivable to me, to think that formal wars continue to be seen as a useful alternative, to young talented persons such as yourself. It is very discouraging to think, that in spite of your superior mind and education and knowledge of the world; that you believe that assaulting the lowest ranking brutes is where the scarce resources should be spent.

I know that the humanities is not your field; but does this methodology appear sound? Is this the best that the human mind can conceive? Some integration of intelligence is required.

Lenin didn't have it all wrong; he applied his theory incorrectly. It's COMMUNAL THINKING that is required here; getting everybody on the same page; looking at the same problem and applying COLLECTIVE BRAINS to the solution.

Sharing monetary capital had flaws. What could be the flaws in the collectivity of communal thinking? Certainly, one of the deterrents would be a perceived need for immediate gratification.

It's been fun sparring with you Marcus; but I must get back to my knitting; I'm confident that a whole troup of elderhostelers is out there looking for me. If you see any, please point them in my direction.

Sharon

I share the good news that surveillance by machines and human eyes, seems to have identified the London terrorists. All best to you.

Post 54

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 5:18am

It is said that a camel is a horse put together by a committee - those 'communal brains' you are enamored of... I prefer the horse...

Post 55

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 5:29am

How so, Robert?

Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 12:29am

Kurt, in response to post 43:

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So a whole lot of self-interest and benevolence is at stake,�not only to�the people alive now, but to�all� those unborn who would otherwise either die or live as slaves to Kim's whimsy ...
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I don't share your view of "self-interest," Kurt. And bringing up the "unborn" really ... REALLY harms your case -- with folks like me.

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... it will not be a difficult war, but it will be a very tough peace ...
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When peace is more difficult than war, then I suspect that someone, somewhere, is collecting some kind of sacrifice -- and that can't be good. Is war easier than peace, Kurt? C'mon man, listen to yourself.

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That is exactly what most people are ready for - to live the good life being connected to the rest of the world has to offer.
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Then knock off their leaders, and let them then fight to secure their own freedom -- you respect what you, yourself, earned.

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1.� It is in our self-interest to defeat Terrorism
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Agreed.

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2.� Terrorism won't be defeated by a "firewall" or by defense only, it will require intervention of various kinds over a fairly lengthy period of time.
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Agreed.

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3.� It is in our self-interest to have more people we can trade with (to sell to, to buy from, and to invest in, not to mention any brilliant ideas lost forever because someone who could have been great was instead murdered ...
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Agre ... hey, wait a minute! Ohhh, that's smooth Kurt. You're slick. You're good ... really good. But you just came back to the "unborn" thing with a "brilliant ideas lost forever" premise. Man, do you ever make sacrifice sound sweet, though! If there were only a Toohey Award ...

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4.�Both can be accomplished by the end of the century.
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What a great vision, Kurt. So, it's firmly in our hands then? We only need to replace Hillary's "It Takes a Village" with Strauss' "It Takes a World Super Power" -- and we're home free? Sounds like a plan.

Ed

Post 57

Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 1:05am

Kurt,

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The government in China is Communist in name only.
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Interesting word choice, Kurt. I'm wondering, can you effectively rebut counter-arguments from amnesty.org? ...

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Ye Guozhu was detained on suspicion of �disturbing social order� in August after applying for permission to hold a mass protest against forced evictions in Beijing. He was sentenced to four years in prison in December. Ye Guozhu and his family had been forcibly evicted from their home in Beijing last year to make way for construction reportedly related to the 2008 Olympics.
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Kelo on steroids -- if you're asking me.

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Serious violations against women and girls continued to be reported as a result of the enforcement of the family planning policy, including forced abortions and sterilizations. In July the authorities publicly reinforced a ban on the selective abortion of female foetuses in an attempt to reverse a growing gap in the boy-girl birth ratio.
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"Wade"-ing when you should be "Roe"-ing?

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�Custody and Education� continued to be used to detain alleged prostitutes and their clients without charge or trial.
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Could "Custody and Education" ever really fly -- as a means of charge-less detention -- in a non-Communist state?

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Kong Youping , a leading member of the Chinese Democratic Party and former union activist in Liaoning province, was sentenced to 15 years� imprisonment in September for �subversion�. He had been detained in late 2003 after posting articles on the Internet attacking official corruption and urging a reassessment of the 1989 pro-democracy movement.
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Imprisoned for being pro-democratic. Really, need I say more here?

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Reports increased of arrests and detentions of unregistered Catholics and members of unofficial Protestant �house churches�.

Zhang Shengqi, Xu Yonghai and Liu Fenggang, three independent Protestant activists, were sentenced to one, two and three years in prison respectively by the Hangzhou Intermediate People�s Court for �leaking state secrets� in August. The charges related to passing information abroad about crackdowns on Protestants and the closure of unofficial churches in the area.
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Better hurry and register those beliefs of yours, Big Brother is watching ... waiting ...

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People were executed for non-violent crimes such as tax fraud and embezzlement as well as drug offences and violent crimes.
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Certainly, there is no comment needed here.

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The authorities officially announced an intention to reform �Re-education through Labour�, a system of administrative detention used to detain hundreds of thousands of people for up to four years without charge or trial. However, the exact nature and scope of reform remained unclear.
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Well, at least they were talking about it.

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Freedom of religion, expression and association continued to be severely restricted and arbitrary arrests and unfair trials continued. Over 100 Tibetan prisoners of conscience, mainly Buddhist monks and nuns, remained in prison.
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"Prisoners of conscience"?

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Fears about restrictions on freedom of expression were fuelled by the resignation of three radio talk show hosts in May after they allegedly received threats for calling for greater democracy in Hong Kong. The administrative detention of a Hong Kong Democratic Party candidate in China in advance of Hong Kong elections in September was also viewed by many as politically motivated.
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Admittedly speculation, but it sure doesn't help the case presented by each and every other quote above.

Ed

Post 58

Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 6:51am

By "unborn" I mean to simply emphasize the fact that the longer that North Korea exists as it does, the longer the threat has to materialize (nukes, anyone?), and the more people die or fail to get past infancy, which has a compound effect. It is within the power of the US to affect change and matters are coming to a head. It is clear sitting around waiting does nothing for us.

Isn't the whole point of Capitalism that trade is a win-win? Isn't the whole point of self-interest and self-defense to enhance our security and economic situation? Why is this a "sacrifice" you have not ever explained.

Ahhh... but I know, free market assassins. Nice idea for a story, but that's all it is.

I said China was not effectively Communist, not that they were not Authoritarian. What is your solution, assassinate their leaders? You think that will work? Amnesty you quote, the ones who claim torture at Guantanamo? I don't doubt these things happen, but what is your point? It is not going to be an easy time to change things there, and it may never end up the way we would want it, but that doesn't mean it isn't a lot better than it was.

Post 59

Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 7:07am