About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 40

Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 10:51amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve;
"Joe,

I was clear about property rights - I was not suggesting editing someone else's work. I was only talking about what I would have preferred over what is."

Steve:
I was clear that I said there can be times when it's appropriate. Can you meet me halfway here, and see the other side? I also said it's a double-edged sword, and that a critic should be mindful of this. For example, if one critic tells me a certain song should have a different guitar tone, should I go and change it? Or if this chord should be "different?" Is the guitar tone "wrong?"
I've seen someone on this board criticize a painting of a woman on a jet plane because the plane did not have enough "color." It's one thing to state a preference for something different, it's another to tell the artist that the choice is "WRONG."

" But treating an object as beyond thinking about in certain ways is silly. When a person makes an observation about how a piece of music or a painting would be experienced had it been done differently should NOT be sacrilegious."

That's all well and good. But let's not take the criticism of the criticism to be sacrilegious, either. And what "could be different" is NOT THE POINT. (This is kinda weird, anyway. The artist takes an aspect of reality and recreates it, that's proper. Is it proper for the critic to recreate the artwork in his own image? No. That IS backseat driving, as Michael says. When you enter someone's art, you enter it on the artist's terms.) THE WHOLE POINT of art is a personal world created by the artist. But then, there are those who want to "express themselves" on other people's work. That's the real danger, isn't it?




(Edited by Joe Maurone on 3/15, 10:55am)

(Edited by Joe Maurone on 3/15, 11:15am)


Post 41

Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 12:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael,

"I still don't get you at all.

I suspect you really aren't trying that hard, because it isn't difficult. I expressed a personal preference that came to mind when looking at the painting. I am intrigued by her relation to the parrot.... I want to know more about this imaginary woman and parrot (not the painting). I wanted to see more of her face.
------------

"Do you think that your composition suggestions would be an improvement to the Courbet?"

I like seeing the expression on faces... for me it would be an improvement - would it be an improvement in an objective sense - I have no idea.

"What do you base that on?"

Knowing what I like.

"Are you going to actually paint what you think is better?"

No, I was just stating what I like. Am I required to bring into existence all things that I can imagine existing in a way that is different and that I would like better in the altered state? Am I not permitted to state my preferences without being attacked for them?

"Or are you simply being Platonic?"

I don't understand what that means in this context.

"You come across to me, in the art part, as a backseat driver."

So, I should respectfully whisper worshipful, adoring statements in the presence of art - careful to never state a preference or a criticism?

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 42

Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Am I not permitted to state my preferences without being attacked for them?" Steve writes. An artist might similarly ask, "Am I not permitted to publish my work without being attacked?"

Criticism is always permissible. But it bears a responsibility for sincerety. If you idly complain that the painting should have shown the woman's face better, you are failing to treat the artwork with the seriousness it deserves. A basic element such as the one you spoke of represents a deliberate choice by the painter. That choice fit with his purpose, his meaning, etc. and isn't to be second-guessed. You might as well say, I'd rather he'd painted a male.

A work of art is a compact object representing a huge effort. The viewer can so easily be an ass in expressing their casual impressions and shallow opinions (I'm not speaking of you, Steve,) never bothering to put the requisite effort into studying, or thinking about the work that even their personal-best criticism would require. This, when that person's personal best may be woefully inadequate as an objective criticism.

Art deserves serious treatment from its critics. I am quilty, in my first comment on this picture, of giving it too little consideration. If I had spent more time on it, I would have realized what I later did about why her hair was spread out, and her head position awkward. The context has something to do with this. Somebody puts up a picture and says, discuss this painting. If we are serious thinkers, we should have works of art held in a category that requires appropriately serious consideration before we malign it.

I think both this and the earlier dispute, about Ted's poem, both turn on the question of having an appropriate respect for art.  It isn't a question of art's being sacrosanct, but of deserving serious consideration. People who fail miserably to appreciate art may offer us the spectacle of their insipidity parading as an improvement on something they couldn't begin to, and never even tried to equal. Artists are justifiably outraged at such behavior.

Basically, it is a question of taking the effort, which may well be great, to understand a work of art before one allows oneself to fault it.

Mindy


Post 43

Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 4:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Much of this is because of not accepting [or knowing] that the area within those four borders is that of a universe, one created by the artist - and it is first that one needs see what kind of universe is created, before proclaiming affirmities to it...

Post 44

Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 4:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mindy,

That was a fantastic post. I still have a few shivers running up my spine.

Michael

Post 45

Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 4:54pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
OK, Michael, drop the other shoe on me.  ;-)
(Edited by Mindy Newton on 3/15, 4:54pm)


Post 46

Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 7:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Much of this thread is has become an example of my complaint. Mindy says, "Art deserves serious treatment from its critics." I'm not an art critic - if I can be humorous about politics, medicine, culture, or the cost of living - If I can state my preferences in cars, politicians, and ethical theories, then why must I fit my comments into some sacred mold of the proper when it is about art. Get over it - I stated a preference.

Joe was upset that someone might suggest a different guitar chord. Joe, smile, thank them, and let it go. I've had dumb things suggested to me for half a century and it hasn't made me shrivel up and die.

Mindy thinks there would be a problem with someone stating that they would rather the model have been a male. People, these are statements about the viewer, made by the viewer (or listener). Why are people feeling threatened or getting their backs up? Do we need to make a religion out of art? And THAT is what is being done.

Mindy says, "It isn't a question of art's being sacrosanct, but of deserving serious consideration. People who fail miserably to appreciate art may offer us the spectacle of their insipidity parading as an improvement on something they couldn't begin to, and never even tried to equal. Artists are justifiably outraged at such behavior." Wow! Is there a test I can take to find out if I can say anything without making a spectacle of myself... maybe it's too late, people seem to be getting outraged.

A non-artist, non-critic bystander is allowed to state their preferences for almost anything under the sun.... Apparently art being an exception. Artists who get outraged because someone offers a clumsy observation need to get over it. Maybe they should see someone about that problem. Anyone who produces anything is judged by their work. Artists are no different. We are also judged by our judgments, criticisms, suggestions and observations.

But it seems artists want an exemption - "Don't anyone dare to say anything about a work of art unless you wrap it up in pretentious, excuse me, serious art-speak."

If anyone is getting annoyed at me, at my attitude, at my comments, stop and think for a minute... I've said nothing disrespectful about the painting, the artist, about art or about the act of creation that is involved. Only about this silly idea that one can't express preferences when discussing art - not in any way that actually mentions a work of art - except maybe if one uses very serious statements that are positive and contain no suggestions of anything different.

Everybody who creates something is building upon what others have done before, even with the most origonal works. They have mentally taken in things that they admired and wondered what it would be like had the artist done this or that differently. To say that they can't say what they are thinking makes no sense to me.





Post 47

Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 7:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ok, Steve, I'll let it go. But I think that's an odd thing to say after you've battled so valiantly on the Rand wiki page for your edits...


(Edited by Joe Maurone on 3/15, 7:34pm)


Post 48

Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 9:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joe, I may be myopic in this instance, but I don't think I'm seriously in disagreement with anyone here... maybe just a little bit.

Thank you for the kind words. I battled hard for my beliefs and against people saying things about Rand that were clearly wrong. I didn't object to their having opinions, however idiotic; or to their preferences, no matter how different from mine - but they shouldn't have been able to tell lies. I wasn't trying to protect any creative effort of mine. Many of the editors there are better word-smiths than I am. I let my words be changed as long as the meaning was not changed into an unjustified attack on Rand.

I'm happy to let this go as well.



Post 49

Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 11:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mindy: "OK, Michael, drop the other shoe on me. ;-)"

Won't drop a shoe on that, I was unstinting in my praise - end point.

Post 50

Monday, March 16, 2009 - 1:05amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve: "Why are people feeling threatened or getting their backs up?"

I don't think anyone here feels threatened, or getting their backs up by what you have said. I have only felt puzzlement.


"Do we need to make a religion out of art?"

That is a funny question. You shouldn't be surprised, but yes, that is a great thing. The fun and rewarding part of being an artist is to express your deepest held beliefs about being. SECULAR ARTISTS UNITE!!!

Michael























Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 51

Monday, March 16, 2009 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes, that is what we are - spiritual visualizers...

Post 52

Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 1:25amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Newberry:
Courbet's erotic paintings are a hymn to women!
Worthy companions to "Woman with a parrot" are "Femme nue couchée", "Le sommeil" and "La Bacchante".


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2


User ID Password or create a free account.