RoR: Forum

I didn't realize how chilling those words were when I first read Atlas Shrugged!

I'm not even sure I made the connection until it was presented this way, but then again, there is simply so much to absorb in reading AS that I am still finding amazing nuggets of information after at least a dozen readings. :) But now I know exactly what Francisco was talking about! Many people won't change, or perhaps can't change despite the 'evidence' that they need to. Sometimes it just takes about 35 years. LOL!

However, forgiveness is an interesting scenario. The biggest question is, how do you know when someone has changed for 'real'? Where do you draw the line especially in intimate relationships? I know the 'answer' is that when that person demonstrates that change. But this can be difficult to judge at times. If it is in an intimate relationship, the tendancy is to 'distrust' over and over because the thinking goes something like this ...

'He/she did do _this_ correctly, but only because I had to bitch about it before. Next time, they will forget and go back to their old ways .. '
And keep thinking this years later creating nothing but deep distrust and derision.

Worse perhaps is that one partner will set traps for the other, to test that change .. and not in a positive way.

I've seen couples where one partner will 'forgive' the other, and then create this atmosphere of distrust and make it impossible for that partner to make purposeful changes, identify the root cause of their negative actions and correct them. It's really sad and when the partner reverts to their old behavior out of anger and frustration, the other partner will jump on it and exclaim 'Aha! I knew you wouldn't change!'

Of course, truly rational people wouldn't revert to their old behavior, they would want to be the best they can be for themselves, but these days, it seems that part of being in a relationship is to be supportive and encouraging in getting rid of irrational baggage.

I suppose it would depend on how interested both partners were in overcoming their baggage, how rationally they wanted to approach the situation.

Because we have to learn how to be rational, make correct choices there is a huge margin for error. Wisdom comes in knowing which can be corrected and in knowing HOW to correct them. Giving up on someone is something only the individuals invovled can decide and often, while it seems strange to those observing, maybe progress is happening .. assuming that there is some level of enlightment involved for the individuals concerned. :)

Joy :)

Post 1

Friday, May 24, 2002 - 7:28pm

In some situations, they might not be able to earn back the trust. I don't think that's always a bad thing. Relationships can and do continue despite little problems.

I think it's better to be honest about the distrust, and set new boundaries. If someone doesn't pay you back the money you lent them, or they're irresponsible, you shouln't lend them money anymore. Be upfront about it. Say, "Look. I lent you money before. You screwed up. I'm not doing it again." You can still be friends. You just recognize limits. You're not comfortable with some things, and that's fine.

The problems you mentioned, like saying that you forgive someone, but never really trusting them, is one of the major side-effects of TRYING to forgive someone. That is, taking forgiveness as a virtue or duty that you should perform. If you're not convinced that they've changed, don't trust them. Don't try to forget about the past. Only set away the old information if you've got new information that really makes you think otherwise.

If a girl cheats on her boyfriend, but begs for forgiveness and promises never to do it again, he should ignore it. Only if she can give him actual reasons should he believe her. Things like "I really love you and I'll never do it again" just don't do the trick, because love didn't prevent it from happening the first time.

You're right that it can still be very complicated, but I find that most people run into this complication because they feel compelled by their ethics to forgive. Without that, the problems are much less frequent.

Post 2

Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 5:38am

By forgiving a person, you are giving that person another chance, so that you can both
continue with the relationship that you enjoyed before the distraction occurred. However,
before you make the decision to forgive, you will analyse the relationship in detail. The
perceived �positives and the negatives� are compared, and if the positives are enough for
you, you will decide to forgive. For me the positive has to outweigh the negative by far, at
least 95% positive and 5% negative. For others,it may be different. Some �battered wives�,for example,are happy to
live on 5% positive and 95% negative. Why is that?
The problem also is that some of us forgive, but use the wrongdoing as a weapon. This is
actually very clever, because guilt is a powerful tool that one can use to manipulate.

Post 3

Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 10:52am

These battered wives are not "happy" in the sense that we understand the word. Their forgiveness has nothing to do with moving past the offence and believing that it will never happen again.
It has everything to do with a very low self-esteem. Subconsciously these abused people believe they do not deserve any better. They also believe that they are only worthy of love if they give beyond their capability. What they get in return may be so little or so vastly negative, that any "healthy" person would shrink from it in horror. The victim of abuse however believes that it is their own fault, their unworthiness and their own inability "to love" even better that makes them deserve the treatment.
So I believe that preaching forgiveness also preaches low self-esteem. A person with a healthy self-value and self-esteem would never allow themselves to be treated badly; and would not treat any one else badly either. By brainwashing someone to forgive and forget everything done to them, is to teach them that they do not matter, that they are not valuable or worthy enough to deserve good treatment from the start.

Post 4

Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 4:29pm

Hi Trinity! And Joe :)

Trinity, you are absolutely correct ... been there done that and believe me, I burned that t-shirt! LOL! While it was never taught as a virtue as I recall, it was very evident in our family in other ways .. this constant screwing up and forgiving. Sadly, even if it is not taught, it is expected from marriage vows .. you know, 'in sickness and health, good times and bad times .. till death do you part'.

It's why I'm against the marriage contract as it stands these days. LOL!

Joy :)

Post 5

Saturday, May 25, 2002 - 6:22pm

Been there, done that too :o/ Am still smelling the smoke of the burning T-shirt but at least it IS burning :o) And wow, did I learn a lot!

This forgiveness package deal has such far-reaching tentacles that it is really horrifying. Since to me that brand of forgiveness breeds low self-esteem (and vice versa), I also tend to think that it is not only the root of abuse and abuse victims but all sorts of other evils too, such as communism and its mini-me socialism for example.
Which is why Objectivism was such a revelation for me. It is the only philosophy that can truly heal the psyche. All others (and I include religions in that) seem to be designed to make you feel that just by being human you are lower than any earth worm.
I guess it's the old chicken and egg paradox all over. What came first? Did low self-esteem breed religion first, or did religion breed low self-esteem first?
Just imagine what the world would look like, if at least the majority of its population had healthy self-esteem!

PS: Not that I am against forgiveness of course but it has to be for a reason and not just for the sake of it.

Post 6

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 6:51pm

Hi Trinity!

I've been on a writing binge and so am behind on everything else. :)

However, I wanted to repeat something you mentioned in your reply that I agree with completely:

"Which is why Objectivism was such a revelation for me. It is the only philosophy that can truly heal the psyche."

So true!!! I think a lot of money could be saved all over the world if people ditched their therapists, counserlors, whatever learned how to look at life rationally. To accept this reality as such, understand it has rules, and how to really think about what power we have, and what power we do not have.

Just today I wrote an article that will hopefully appear here on SOLOHQ soon that addresses this point in one specific way -- that of accepting unearned pain and guilt. And I do mean pain. Society, culture, even family has learned the value of inflicting pain .. and what I finally came to understand via fully using reason and understanding what Objectivism teaches us is that we don't have to accept any of it!

When I realized that, the world changed for me.

Joy :)

Post 7

Sunday, June 2, 2002 - 5:46am

Hello Joy,

You seem interested and knowledgeable in psychology. I would love to read more on objectivistic psychology and objectivistic counselling. Do you know of any sites or books that you would recommend?

Trinity

Post 8

Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 12:11pm

Hi Trinity,

I am very, very interested in psychology, especially as it relates to Objectivism, but have yet to read anything on the matter. LOL!

I do know of one web site, and I saw a link here on SOLOHQ to that site -- Dr. Hurd, Rational Happiness I think. Other than that, I can't say. Most of what I have observed and concluded is based on my experience or direct observation of people I am acquainted with.

Then again, my experience is extensive as Objectivism, it's focus on what is real and knowable did keep me from going insane. *grin*

Most of my writing here on SOLOHQ will deal with the psychological elements of Objectivism so as soon as I get my new system fully functional, I'll be writing. :)

Feel free to write me personally about this, or subjects you would like to see discussed here. I intend to eventually cover quite a bit, but if there is interest in a pariticular aspect, I'll begin with that. :)

Joy :)

Post 9

Monday, June 10, 2002 - 11:01pm

Joy I cannot poosibly agree more with a person than what I agreed with in what you first said. Forgiving a person, involves the ability to accept those parts of them YOU cannot, nor desire to understand. Secondly, the infinite wisdom to know the difference between those things you can and cannot change leads you to embace yourself and acknowledge that you alone know what is best for you. I could go on, but why even try when what you first said teaches me personally so much more than anything anyone might confirm.

You are a Fountainhead of wisdom, maybe we should call you Athena. Or maybe just simply JOY. You have the wisdom for Life that Marilyn Monroe could only suggest!!!

Post 10

Monday, June 10, 2002 - 11:24pm

Please forgive the typos in my first posting, my excited response cause me to use my sixth finger, which is obviously only characteristic of Philistines. LOL

Post 11

Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 5:44pm

My being a black man,It is hard to realize what you are talking about.You forgive for your own self preservation. That does't mean that you forget the history of the deed.Look into your sole and the sole of the person or people. Exract the goodness.Don't dwell on the negative.Take a deep breath hold it and exhale the negativity.To not forgive is a burden on yourself.

I once was in a world of hatred. Now I am free. Please set yourself free.
J.W.

Post 12

Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 6:29pm

Hi Jerome,

I'm not sure what you are referring to here as we were indeed talking about forgiveness, making sane choices for ourselves and as you say, extracting goodness from ourselves and others.

No one here was dwelling on the negative, only acknowledging that there will be times when we are in a situation that is not able to be saved. This happens. My first marriage was like that. I came to a place where I knew that there was nothing to salvage, no goodness to extract and it was only harming me on every level.

I set myself free. *grin* With a divorce. :)

However, the funny thing is, I think I've gone through equally trying times in my second marriage, but have only been motivated to open up more, face the issues directly because this time, I have a partner that is willing to do the same. It makes ALL the difference.

Thank you for your kind words!

Joy :)

Post 13

Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 9:44pm

Joe, I made a slight mistake and posted on the wrong article, so I repeat here, people do grow up, learn, and change. Some are even sorry. To cut them off without a chance to make ammends is cold. I will give you that in some circumstances you are enabling others by forgiving them over and over, however all of us are not created equal in the brains department, and sometimes it takes awhile for people to grow up and take responsibility for their actions. The real test is to ask yourself if you have ever needed someone to forgive you, and been denied that chance. Always walk a while in the other guys shoes before being so judgemental.

Post 14

Friday, January 31, 2003 - 4:31am

If a person does acknowledge his mistake, learn from it, and make amends, then by all means forgive him. But forgiveness has to be earned, Lona. At least, my forgiveness has to be earned when somebody wrongs me.

Post 15

Friday, January 31, 2003 - 1:09pm

Matthew, first of all I can't believe someone actually responded to something I wrote. THANK YOU. Forgiveness always has to be earned, that goes right along with trust. In my experience, when trust goes you set up barriers to protect yourself, but give them a chance (sometimes several chances)to prove you can trust them again, and if they do change, the barriers come back down. If you really cared about this relationship then all the chances you gave would be well worth the wait. The bitterness and hurt of being wronged fade away. If there is no forgiveness I'm afraid you carry that hurt your whole life, and that cripples you in all your future relationships.

Post 16

Saturday, February 1, 2003 - 5:33am

You're welcome, Lona. However, I don't understand how being unable to forgive one person would cripple me in a relationship with another? If I'm angry at John, why would that cripple me in a relationship with you?

Post 17

Monday, February 3, 2003 - 8:56pm

If you're angry at John, you put up a wall to protect yourself from further hurt. The problem is the wall stops everything. It might seem like you're in a good relationship with someone, but you're not really going to open up fully and trust them not to hurt you. I call people behind walls "cold hearts" because they love, but never love totally.

Post 18

Monday, February 3, 2003 - 9:04pm

Lona, do you know this to be true in all cases? If so, how do you know?

Post 19

Tuesday, February 4, 2003 - 4:21am