RoR: Forum

Of course it isn't true in all cases, but I believe it would take quite a while to feel safe enough to lower your guard, and during that judging time that "somebody" would most likely mess up. Unless they're perfect. Is there such a thing as perfect? I hope you are one of the few that can take of his armor. I haven't met many.

Post 21

Wednesday, February 5, 2003 - 8:58am

I can, but only for people who have earned the right to see me off guard by earning my trust. I wouldn't let a stranger see my naked body; why let him see my naked mind?

Post 22

Thursday, February 6, 2003 - 2:18pm

I don't believe in just forgiving someone because one should. There should be specific reasons for doing so based on the facts of the situation. And I disagree with Lona, not forgiving a person does not mean that you will hold onto the anger, that is a choice you make independent of whether you can forgive the person or not. Forgiving someone does not negate the emotions and make it all better, as has been pointed out. And it's not necessarily that someone says, I forgive you and then attempts to trip people up. Usually it's just that they think they have to forgive, that it's right to forgive. What they haven't done is dealt with their actual feelings. The person being forgiven usually wants to place the incident behind them and leave it alone, and the other person needs to deal with the emotions or it's not going to get any better. If people truly want to work past the issue, then the person who asks for the forgiveness has to let the person thinking about forgiving them, be angry, has to let that person tell them exactly what they feel, why they feel it, and let them say that they don't trust them, etc. And that's very hard for the person who wants to be forgiven. But that actually has to come before the words I forgive you mean anything on the forgiver's part.

Jen

Post 23

Thursday, February 6, 2003 - 4:33pm

Hi Jen,

I'm glad you brought this up -- the roles of the forgiver versus the forgivee.

I've been in both positions in my life, that is to say, I've done things that I wanted to be forgiven for and I've forgiven (sometimes :) others.

You are so right about the importance of getting it all out, slinging every thing about and just getting it all over and done with.

Interestingly enough, when I sought forgiveness, the person was reluctant to delve into the issues of hurt and broken trust. They just wanted to say, 'Okay, it's over and done.' But ... I needed for them to express their anger at me, get their feelings of hurt out because I knew that was important .. selfishly, to me! I guess on the one hand, it's bad that I, as the transgressor would want to demand anything of the person forgiving me, but I did. I would have felt better about the entire situation if they had ranted and railed at me, been honest about how they felt.

What I find ironic is that some religions understand this psychology very well with their various rituals of repentence or whatever it's called.

As a forgiver, I too felt the need to express EXACTLY what the issue was and surprisingly enough, it often did not match what the other person thought they had done. Maybe that explains my need to get it all out -- often there are very different perceptions that were acted upon and it becomes a case of 'justice' in which you explore all the elements to understand the processes that led to it.

I'm rambling now, but atonement is important, an open sharing of the event is important, ranting and railing is important. Honesty is key.

Joy

Post 24

Thursday, February 6, 2003 - 7:13pm

Matthew, I thought the comment you made about your "naked mind" was very poetic. The issue here is not in forgiving someone, necessarily, but is in forgiving yourself for allowing yourself to be in a position where they could betray your trust. I don't agree Jen, that you have a choice to "hold on to the anger" or not. In the real world you can't turn your emotions off like that. I do agree that ranting and railing is a good thing. It helps defuse the intense emotion.

Post 25

Friday, February 7, 2003 - 2:14pm

Hi Lona,

I won't speak for Jen, but my interpretation of having a choice about holding on to anger or not is a true one in the context of choosing to work through it in some way or simply putting it aside if there is no resolution to be found.

It isn't a matter of immediately turning off the emotion of anger but in deciding how productive it is to your ultimate goals and aims in life. I could choose to be angry at my Ex for the rest of my days, but that feeling of anger is not productive to me. I won't waste my time in recounting and reliving all the reasons I should be angry at him, I try to think of it as little as possible because it does not fit in with my life. Every moment I spend in thinking of him wastes a moment I could be doing something else like enjoying my children and my husband, my writing, watching a great movie, listening to great music.

I know some that actively spend time being angry and hating someone that has wronged them and it does eventually have a very negative impact on their lives. I see it often in cases where individuals have been abused by their parents growing up. Some, even 40 years after the fact, spend way too much time simply hating their parent. For what purpose? They could have put that hate aside and LIVED their lives, choosing what to include and what to exclude. To focus on all the good that is available to them, rather than focusing on the bad that they have no hope of changing.

At some point, it is better to let the anger go and focus on doing good for yourself, with the ultimate goal in life of being productive and happy, healthy withold allowing others to hold you back.

It isn't an easy thing to do, but the alternative of NOT doing it is worse. It will take time, discipline, and hopefully a supportive friend or two to put anger aside and turn to the light side. :)

Joy

Post 26

Friday, February 7, 2003 - 3:01pm

Lona,
You wrote: "The issue here is not in forgiving someone, necessarily, but is in forgiving yourself for allowing yourself to be in a position where they could betray your trust."

I am just wondering -- why force yourself to forgive people -- then berate yourself instead for whatever they've done because you trusted them? The cause of the problem is still the poor decision they made.

I am really glad you revived this discussion. It's definitely relevant to me right now!

Christy

Post 27

Saturday, February 8, 2003 - 6:08pm

Christy, I think when you said "berate yourself", you missed my point. But I guess we all do that at the time of betrayal to different degrees. I meant what I said, which was to forgive yourself. That is so the walls don't go up and close you off to deep feeling. I have been thinking about it, and there are some things I would never forgive. They all fall in the capital punishment area. I also believe there are truly evil people in this world and I can't say I would forgive them. In that situation it would be easy to forgive myself for letting it happen however. The rest is exactly what you called it, poor decisions.
Joy, I agree with everything you said, especially about turning to the light side. Our time here is pretty short. We need to make the most of it.

Post 28

Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 12:52pm

Lona,

I have a problem with the idea of forgiving yourself. I may be able to understand it in terms if you were the one who made the "poor choice" and hurt someone else, and how you would then have to take responsibility for your actions and realize you have forfeited the right to be trusted by the other person.

However, you mentioned forgiving yourself in terms of letting yourself make the choice in being with someone who violated your trust. This I think has more to do with your perception of yourself, life and your confidence level. When in a relationship I have certain expectations and I am clear about what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior and what I would forgive and allow a second chance, and what would terminate the relationship completely. If my partner (since this is an easy example) were to cheat on me, he would have already been informed that is unacceptable and having found out about it the relationship would be terminated. In the aftermath I would grieve for the end of the relationship and the person I thought him to be, but at no time would I feel like I made a poor choice and that I needed to forgive myself. As for furture relationships, I don't believe in judging people on the basis of another person's actions. If you choose to allow yourself to feel responsible for the other person's actions or thinking that you were stupid and were fooled and now you can't make good judgments then that's more apparent of lack of confidence in oneself. And that's not about forgiving yourself, you just have to realize that you have no control over another person's actions and there's always a risk in entering a relationship with any other person. So you make a judgment in whether it is a value to accept the risk and take the chance to develop relationships and live passionately and give equally of yourself, or you decide that there is more value in remaining a solitary figure who never has to deal with the fallibleness of human beings. Personally, the passionate healthy risk-taking is my prefered choice.

Jen

Post 29

Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 12:11pm

Jen,
I believe you can make a rational decision to not allow yourself to react in a certain way, but I don't believe you can control your emotions in a rational way. I mean actually following through with your rational choice may be impossible most of the time. I also don't believe in judging people on the basis of another's actions, however, my brain is usually taken over by my emotions. I think every healthy person takes a blow to their self confidence when things go wrong, and then starts to question their own decisions. That, to me, is where self-forgivness becomes necessary in order to clear the slate and go on with their passionate healthy risk-taking life.

Post 30

Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 7:09am

Joe, this essay just came up in the archive, and I found it a very thoughtful, useful dissection of the "package deal" of forgiveness. I learned from it. Thanks.

Post 31

Monday, December 23, 2013 - 6:27am

Forgiveness does not mean subjecting oneself to hurtful behavior. In the example given, the woman does not have to take the man on again as a boyfriend to forgive. Those are two different things. Even if he has not changed and would dump her again, the woman who forgives betters herself, because it frees her of the hurtful behavior of the former boyfriend. How can we really determine whether the boyfriend has changed? Either we accept that any significant other may stray, (there is a good chance that this one will) and accept those risks, or we do not. Either way, we can FORGIVE the wanderer and move on with our lives, whatever we decide. Forgiving doesn't mean ignoring reality. We choose whether what we want the relationship to be after the breakup and return: stranger, acquaintance, friend, lover, spouse... The forgiving is for us, not for the other person.

Not forgiving someone and emotionally holding onto their wrong is like allowing someone whose behavior you don't like to rent the valuable space in your head for free. I would rather forgive and release all of that. It has nothing to do with whether the person has redeemed themselves for me. It has to do with me knowing people are not perfect and human, that I have the capacity to forgive and let go of it. If they continue the behavior, I don't want them in my life, but I can forgive them and move on.

Post 32

Monday, December 23, 2013 - 11:04am

I think that is another way to interpret why "forgive" is usually packaged with "and forget."

Not as in 'forget what this person is capable of and walk chinfirst into harms way again' but ... 'Sure, I forgive you...and now, I've forgotton you, too. Have a nice life, you are forgiven... Just, not interested in another shot at whatever that was...so goodbye.'

Right, none of us are perfect; thank goodness there are so many of us, and there are lots more choices, and no need to repeatedly forgive just one person...once is plenty.

Forgive...and say goodbye...and forget. Surely, that is a healthy option sometimes.

Post 33

Monday, December 23, 2013 - 11:35am

No one needs to forgive to "release themselves from the hurtful behavior" of others.

That's Biblical babble in my view.

Post 34

Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 6:36pm