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Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 1:09amSanction this postReply
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The problem here is that you are treating Objectivism as the whole of philosophy and it's only a part, a very small part. Even Rand admitted that in her book on the Art of Nonfiction!! She told the people in her lecture not to act like Objectivism is everything and tried to tone them down. But, Objectivists just won't listen to reason. It wasn't Rand who was unreasonable in her philosophy, it was Rand unreasonable in her PERSONAL views, which are the first things to be attacked. Now the problem is not with Rand, because she's dead. It is with Objectivists who think she said it all and don't think that there is any other philosophy aside from hers, and that one day she will come back to take them with her to heaven. THAT IS DOGMATISM, which is a valid position in religions and theologies, but not in philosophy.

Post 1

Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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Excuse me - I'm not a Randian, but philosophy is philosophy. If there are other things that should be included, then it is by definition part of philosophy. And Objectivism is nothing more than rational philosophy.

Post 2

Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 12:21pmSanction this postReply
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So Francois if Objectivism is nothing more than "rational philosophy" and it is intuitive, then it is squarely placed within the broad concept of philosophy, right? Then how do you explain the difference between Objectivism and common sense or intuitively based thinking? Are you equating the intuitive with common sense? You seem to be arguing that they are in principle the same. Then a person who has studied no philosophy but has common sense or "intuition", would already be some type of Objectivist? If I had only read Aristotle and somehow derived that existence exists, and consistently applied that single axiom, would I then be on my way to becoming an Objectivist? What I was arguing was merely that the heavy "imprinting" of Rand's personality on her philosophy is so strong that it is often hard to distinguish between the "Randian" element, the "objectivist" element, and philosophy proper.

You know I am almost tempted to say that Rand's literary nature is so strong that she approached philosophy from the point of view of a novelist. Teleology is a predominant factor in her novels, character development, plot, theme, etc. When she turns to philosophy she employs practically the same methods. Others have detected a "dialectical" methodology in her philosophy. Perhaps her championing of Aristotle has something to do with this. Francois I enjoyed your article because I think you bring up a lot of valid points.

Post 3

Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
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"Then how do you explain the difference between Objectivism and common sense or intuitively based thinking? Are you equating the intuitive with common sense?"

Not as such, no. As I explained, what is intuitive is usually "common sense" in an implicit way, although not explicitly.

"Then a person who has studied no philosophy but has common sense or "intuition", would already be some type of Objectivist?"

No. He would hold Objectivist premises implicitly, but would not be an Objectivist.


"If I had only read Aristotle and somehow derived that existence exists, and consistently applied that single axiom, would I then be on my way to becoming an Objectivist?"

Not as such, no, although you would be more likely to. "existence exists" is not the only axiom necessary to understand metaphysics.


"What I was arguing was merely that the heavy "imprinting" of Rand's personality on her philosophy is so strong that it is often hard to distinguish between the "Randian" element, the "objectivist" element, and philosophy proper."

Not sure what you mean on that one (apart from the fact that I consider philosophy and Objectivism to be the same thing for most purposes). Do you mean that you don't understand the schism between the two sides of the movement ?

Post 4

Friday, September 6, 2002 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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Francois, Thanks for you explanation. I actually had the opportunity to use some of it today. I have a university course on Bioethics and the professor (a liberal, you know American politics?) was going on and on about how morality is innate and how biology can account for the altruistic nature of humans. Several students objected but when I asked her to define "innate" she could not. No I wasn't surprised, liberal professors are usually "immoral" creatures that don't like to define terms:) I don't mind if they want me to just think about the issue and slowly arrive at my own definition, that would be OK. But they don't define their own use of terms, they don't believe in definitions. I asked her if maybe we could say that morality is implicit instead of innate (anything to try and introduce reason into the discussion) NO IMPOSSIBLE!! Humans are innately moral!!

Well I hated to do it but I used the naturalistic fallacy on her, which was not nice, I know. I noticed that people who defend Evolutionary Psychology tend to commit the "naturalistic fallacy" when it is to their advantage to do so. In other words they want to promote "altruism" and so they use evolution to demonstrate how good is in the genes. They commit the naturalistic fallacy just as often as "individualists" do, but they defend altruism rather than individualism. Well I got na answer, no justification or clarification, no definition. Gee, If that were a restaurant and I had received such bad service for my money, I would never go back!!!

BTW: What you cut and pasted from my message kind of scared me when I reread it. I used the word "imprinting" which is a term I somehow borrowed from Etiology (Konrad Lorenz) and conflated with "influencing". Sorry. Oh and your last question about the schism: I know the reasons for it, but like many of the emotionally charged schisms throughout the history of philosophy, you usually don't know everything until a century later, sometimes never:)

I think Objectivism has very valid fundamentals, but they get lost in the posturing or the butt-licking, or the mind-evasions. Above all I am never impressed when someone tells me they have read Atlas Shrugged 40 times, Fountainhead 60, miscellaneous essays 600 times, etc. That is no substitute for critical thinking which must be performed individually, without Rand or "God-in-heaven" looking out for you.

There is still too much Rand in Objectivism:) That is why there are the "Orthodox" and the "liberal Objectivists" or whatever you call them. Because of the "cult of personality" or "persona", Objectivism cannot become an independent philosophy. Oscar Wilde made a remark about literature which I think is comparable to this. "Dans la literature il faut toujours tuer son pere" (in literature one must always kill one's father). Objectivists need to kill Rand in order for the philosophy to live, otherwise it will stagnate.

Objectivism has a sickness. It has a schism and one part of the body is warring against the other. What does the doctor do when your body is sick? Specimens are sent to the lab. In this case the LAB is professional philosophy, academia. No Objectivists want to do that so Objectivism remains at home and gets sicker. It gets no treatment to shock it back into health. I guess you could also say that Rand was a bad mother, she didn't let her children go to school, i.e develop independently.

Post 5

Friday, September 6, 2002 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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I can only agree with your post unreservedly.

Usually, if you get someone's assumed premises in the open, and try to get them to be consistent about it, they'll crack. Then you can point out their actual, acted-upon premises.

But a professor in bioethics that commits the naturalistic fallacy ? Wow. That's new for me.

Perhaps you made a mistake, and she was talking about the ORIGINS of morality in general, not the validation of rational morality ?

Post 6

Saturday, September 7, 2002 - 4:43pmSanction this postReply
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Francois, Yes believe it or not. I questioned her in a way that led her to state it. I used a dialectical procedure of asking her fair questions to which she responded yes and no until I asked her point blank "So is altruism a part of the evolutionary process at the end of which we are aspiring to reach a moral code consistent with the goals of evolution?" YES. She had started her lecture with the utilitarian position, you know the pleasure/pain discourse? Then she quickly lapsed, I mean hurled herself into a messy, sad, logical fallacy that left me gasping. No one else seemed to mind:) I'm going to do my final paper on the "naturalistic fallacy," but I'll use Hayek's critique of G.E. Moore. It won't be scathing or anything like that. I want to present an Objectivist case for Bioethics. Do you have any suggestions? Do you know any articles of interest?

Post 7

Saturday, September 7, 2002 - 7:00pmSanction this postReply
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No, sorry...

Post 8

Saturday, December 6, 2008 - 8:34amSanction this postReply
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"Objectivism has a sickness. It has a schism and one part of the body is warring against the other. What does the doctor do when your body is sick? Specimens are sent to the lab. In this case the LAB is professional philosophy, academia. No Objectivists want to do that so Objectivism remains at home and gets sicker. It gets no treatment to shock it back into health. I guess you could also say that Rand was a bad mother, she didn't let her children go to school, i.e develop independently."
- Anthony Teets


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Post 9

Saturday, December 6, 2008 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

What kind of nonsense is this?! Just more of your bizarre comments apropos of nothing relevant or meaningful?

- Bill

Post 10

Saturday, December 6, 2008 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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"What kind of nonsense is this?!"

It is an interesting thread. Even if you dispute the contents of Ted's quote you have to admit that there is at least room for argument. I'd like to see more of both Tremblay and Teets. Whatever happened to them?

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Post 11

Saturday, December 6, 2008 - 1:27pmSanction this postReply
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It sounds like you're in a bad mood, Bill.

Maybe you missed that the above was not my own statement, out-of-the-blue, but a quite apropos quote of the resondant to an article I've resurrected for purpose of discussion. If you read that article and the comments that follow I am sure you will find the subject at least as relevant to an Objectivist philosophical forum as whether egoism rationalizes bad manners towards waitresses.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 12/06, 1:28pm)


Post 12

Saturday, December 6, 2008 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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I guess you could also say that Rand was a bad mother, she didn't let her children go to school, i.e develop independently." - Anthony Teets
I disagree.

Ed


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Post 13

Saturday, December 6, 2008 - 8:16pmSanction this postReply
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"I guess you could also say that Rand was a bad mother, she didn't let her children go to school, i.e develop independently." - Anthony Teets

Like Ed, I too disagree. Rand made independent thinking one of her primary lessons and she was strongly in favor of individualism as such. That is good mothering. When some people mistake her fierce defense of her ideas for demands of conformity - that is clearly their mistake. If they need to 'kill' Rand to move on, it is because they don't feel strong enough, adult enough, to stand up when she is still a felt presence - that is clearly their problem.

The other problem with Teets' observation, quoted in post #8, has to do with his condescending view that "...professional philosophy, academia..." is more of a scientific lab that can help poor, sick Objectivism. Quite often, I see "professional philosophy" as more of a cabal of witch doctor's assistants squabbling over the relative portions of Postmodernism and Marxism to throw into the bubbling pot with the logical positivism to get the right analytic mixture. Teets' view of Objectivism as being sick because of the factions seems silly given analytic philosophy's endlessly quarrelsome lot. The academicians have been as obstreperous in keeping Objectivism out of their hallowed halls, as some Objectivists have been unwilling to go there.

I don't want to dimiss either the problems within the Objectivist movement or the need to have it taught and studied in the universities - those are vitally important, but I don't think Teets' language is very helpful - it smuggles in too many nasty, condescending attitudes.

Personally, I'm rather proud of our philosophy and quite comfortable admiring it's founder. Isn't it a bit suspicious that the calls to 'kill' Rand aren't seen for Aristotle, or Locke or any other philosopher?


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Post 14

Saturday, December 6, 2008 - 8:58pmSanction this postReply
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Well, personally, I've always been extremely embarassed by Rand, although I do envy her certainty and the control she exerted over others. I've just never been able, with my very limited vocabulary and range of subjects that interest me, to smuggle in enough condescending insults to do the hack job I've always wanted. Objectivism is a nice comfortable set of pre-digested ideas, and the Objectivist world is a social millieu in which I feal comfortable fighting for status. Indeed, I don't care whether Objectivism has any impact in the world as a whole. I'll be happy so long as it remains a closed body of knowledge limited to what has already been written, and so long as parallels between Rand and other thinkers, whom I'd rather not read, are not exposed. I'm rather satisfied with this little world I've mastered. Neither do I care whether current day thinkers like Hitchens, Paglia, Sacks, Dawkins, or Ralph Peters or up and comers of their ilk can learn from Objectivism, or what they could teach us. I have done all the learning I need to do. I just want to unseat Leonard Peikoff, maybe, and become king of this little hill.

Just in case you were wondering.

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Post 15

Saturday, December 6, 2008 - 10:31pmSanction this postReply
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"Isn't it a bit suspicious that the calls to 'kill' Rand aren't seen for Aristotle, or Locke or any other philosopher?"

No. This is a rhetorical device. If you read the Teets carefully he is not so much criticizing Rand as criticizing dogmatism in her followers. Imagine the outrage, calling for objectivity from Objectivists....

"poor, sick Objectivism"

What would you call a bunch of splinter groups calling each other "evil: evaders: subjectivists: Rand haters: exploiters..etc"

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Post 16

Sunday, December 7, 2008 - 12:44amSanction this postReply
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Mike, I agree that there are idiots running around in all of the Objectivist factions. And I saw that Teets' posts had a lot to do with attacking the dogmatic idiots.

But the calls to 'kill' Rand are as likely to mask a desire to separate Rand from the philosophy so that the philosophy can be 'modified' to fit existing academic thinking more closely - or so that bits and pieces can cut off and smuggled into 'scientific analytic philosophy' papers without having to provide the embarrassing credit to Rand.

The important parts of Objectivism are the ideas - not the supporters, and particularly not the nutty ones.

I wonder what parts of Ted's last post are heart-felt and what parts are sarcasm?

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Post 17

Sunday, December 7, 2008 - 4:56amSanction this postReply
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For him there is a difference?

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Post 18

Sunday, December 7, 2008 - 7:23amSanction this postReply
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As for the call to kill Rand:

There is a saying in Zen circles, "If you see the Buddha on the path, slay him" meaning that even if you see your mentor impeding your progress toward enlightenment, do what you have to do.

I think that this sentiment is also pertinent to Objectivism.

Sam


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Post 19

Sunday, December 7, 2008 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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Sam,

When someone says their mentor is impeding their progress they need to change mentors, or find the part of themselves that is trying to stay a child.

It is this last that most closely resembles what the Zen Buddhist saying calls for - achieving personal, inner growth - the 'killing' is done in ones own mind, for one's self.

There are others who want to 'kill' the mentor because they want to take a different path and the beliefs, tied to that mentor, stop them. When someone calls for removing Rand from Objectivism, ask yourself if they are projecting their need to grow some more, to become more their own mentor, or are they chaffing at not being able to move away from basic principles that are anchored by Rand?
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