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Post 60

Saturday, June 7, 2003 - 8:23pmSanction this postReply
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I would like to thank Tim Starr for taking the time to specify his objections to my defense of the "Randian model of ideological 'revolution from above'." Unfortunately, Tim starts off by calling Rand's model "monocausal", which of course it isn't, except in the trivial sense that every causal model applies to reality in some contexts and not in others. This is exactly why Rand insisted that concepts are not "universals." Every observation of a fact of reality, the source of the "evidence of the senses" in which every valid concept is grounded, takes place in some specific context. Every concept other than axiomatic concepts, and every proposition other than axioms, applies in some contexts and not in others. This is why, in the article that is now in press in JARS, I argue that scope tracking and avoiding scope violations - that is, making sure that conclusions are not applied outside the contextual scope of the premises from which they are drawn - are required in objective logic based on Rand's epistemology. If a theoretical model could be disconfirmed just by showing that it has finite rather than universal scope, then theoretical knowledge would be impossible, and we would all be doomed to empiricism.

It is true that, as I say in my e-mail signature line, "Context matters. There is seldom only one cause for *anything*." If the Solidarity Revolution had not had the specific contextual advantages that Tim has listed, it would have been suppressed by the Soviet Union just like the Hungarian and Czechoslovak revolutions before it. This is hardly an argument against the applicability of Rand's model - although if it were, it would amount to finding fault with Rand's model for NOT being "monocausal."

To track the scope of Rand's model, one must remember what she was modeling. The "Randian model of ideological 'revolution from above'" is a model of how one creates a new socio-political order based on a new set of socio-political principles. It is not a model of how regimes collapse. Of course the creation of a new order implies the collapse of the old regime, but the reverse is neither necessary nor usual. It is also possible for a socio-political order to be destroyed by losing a war, or to implode from its own contradictions, as happened in Somalia and in the former Soviet Union. The latter was Marx's model for the eventual end of what he called "Capitalism." There is a certain irony when the only regimes that actually collapsed from their own contradictions were Marxist (although not necessarily Marxian) in their own official ideology. But when a regime implodes from its own contradictions, it is not replaced by a new socio-political order. It is replaced by the raw exercise of unprincipled political power. Trying to disconfirm Rand's model in the latter situation is a scope violation, an elementary error in logic.

On to specific points.

Berlin uprising of 1953.

It is the nature of humans to resist oppression, and communist regimes faced unarmed and armed uprisings, in various places, nearly every year since the Bolshevik revolution, beginning with Kronstadt in 1919. The Berlin uprising of 1953 differed from the rest only in that the Berlin Wall was not yet in place, so the uprising was observed and described by American, British and French journalists. Other uprisings of the same kind, but outside the view of the Western press, were seldom reported. For example, a larger uprising in which striking workers seized control of the city of Wroclaw, in Poland, in 1954, went unnoticed in the West.

To conflate such uprisings with revolution is a category error. A revolution is a change of regime, whether short-lived as in Hungary and Czechoslovakia, or permanent, as in Poland. Uprisings are important as demonstrations of popular discontent, but in the absence of prior intellectual and social change, as described in the "Randian model of ideological 'revolution from above'", uprisings do not become revolutions.

Social position of dissidents.

Tim writes that the "exiled Polish dissident intellectuals Reed credits with laying the groundwork for Solidarity are hardly consistent with a 'revolution from above.'" Actually, those Polish intellectuals laid the foundations while at the top of the social pyramid. Oskar Lange was the chief economist of the State Planning Commission, a post whose power was the equivalent of Alan Greenspan and the whole Council of Economic Advisors rolled into one. Philosopher Leszek Kolakowski and sociologist Zygmunt Baumann were heads of their respective academic departments at Poland's top university. Kolakowski's disciple, novelist Marek Hlasko, was the author of the most widely read book, "The Eighth Day of the Week", in the history of the Polish book industry. A year after the publication of this book, he was considered one of the four most widely admired men in Poland. The others were Primate Cardinal Wyszynski; dissident Communist and long-term political prisoner and then First Secretary Wladyslaw Gomulka; and champion bicycle racer Stanislaw Królak. As for becoming exiles: in Poland that raised the cultural stature of an intellectual far beyond anything that could be achieved at home under the regime.

One more note on Hlasko: "The Eighth Day of the Week" appears to have been written after Hlasko read "The Fountainhead", and possibly "We the Living." The idea is: what if architecture student Howard Roark were trapped in Communist Poland? Hlasko was "suicided" by Communist secret services in 1969.

Post 61

Sunday, June 8, 2003 - 7:48amSanction this postReply
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Good dialogue between Tim and Adam. One brief point here.

I agree completely with Adam that Rand's model is ~not~ monocausal. I agree too that we simply cannot dispense with the contextual aspects of the model (indeed, that's one of the reasons that I've called the model "dialectical"). And I agree completely with Adam about the need for "scope tracking and avoiding scope violations," which, despite the differences in language between us, is akin to what I describe as different modes of analysis: levels, vantage points, extension of units (within a system and across time), and so forth. One simply can't confuse one context or perspectival angle with another.

These are important issues because I ~do~ think there are those who present Rand's theory as a kind of vulgar idealism: simply change the ideas and the rest will follow automatically. This is just as monocausal a presentation as that presented by those who advocate vulgar materialism or vulgar "economism," those who saw changing the "material" or "economic" base as having almost mechanical effects on the "superstructure." Even Marx and Engels fought against such a vulgar approach to the "materialist conception of history."

Similarly, those who accept the insights of Rand in the area of philosophy of history need to be even more sensitive to the complexities of the model. This is a very much neglected aspect of Rand's legacy, and since my initial article here was designed as a reclamation project---I'd like to suggest that there is even ~more~ reclamation ahead.

Another area needing development is the whole notion of a Randian historiography. Only Peikoff has attempted an application of this (in his OMINOUS PARALLELS), but he's never really detailed the historiographical principles at work. On a Rand-influenced historical method, I think some very good first steps were taken by Roy Childs, who enunciated some very interesting principles in one of his early essays, "Big Business and the Rise of American Statism" (republished in LIBERTY AGAINST POWER: ESSAYS BY ROY A. CHILDS, JR.).

More to follow...

Cheers,
Chris

---
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra/notablog.htm

Post 62

Sunday, June 8, 2003 - 1:00pmSanction this postReply
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A few points in reply to Reed:

1) Reed makes his argument circular by defining a social "revolution" so as to require prior ideological change. This is to distinguish it from mere "uprisings" or regime collapse from internal contradictions. However, if a regime collapses, but some sort of society remains, then there must be something in its place. The Soviet implosion didn't result in nothing in its wake, it resulted in the Russian Federation. The Somali revolution didn't result in nothing in its wake, it resulted in a combination of a return to tribal government and martial law between the military leaders of rival clans.

2) Reed also mixes up the chronology of his account of the influence of the Polish intellectuals he credits with laying the groundwork for the success of Solidarity. Lange's position as Chief Economist of the State Planning Commission would have little cultural influence; Alan Greenspan and the President's Council of Economic Advisors have little cultural influence in America. Hardly anyone even knows who any of the Economic Advisors are, and Greenspan is mostly known for his ability to raise or lower interest rates, not his views on the gold standard. Lange's influence seems to have been greatest before he reached that position, not afterwards, and much of the work he did to merit that influence was done in Poland's pre-Communist period. As for Kolakowski, his anti-Communist influence seems to have been greatest after he went into exile, not while he still held the position of head of his university's Philosophy department.

The fact that becoming a political prisoner or a dissident elevated one's popular status in Communist Poland is most complimentary to the Poles, but it is inconsistent with the notion of ideological revolution from above. Since that is my phrase, perhaps I ought to explain it, since I seem to be thinking of something other than what Reed is referring to.

3) One way of indicating what I mean is that if there were an ideological revolution from above in Atlas Shrugged, it would be led by Dr. Stadler. Kolakowski is more like Hugh Akston. Dr. Stadler would suddenly be converted to Objectivism, and proceed to teach it to his students, who would then go out into the world and promote and enact the ideas he taught. The only process similar to that in Atlas Shrugged starts with Hugh Akston, who drops out of academia, as the rest of his followers drop out of productive public life. The revolution in Atlas Shrugged is one from below, or outside, not from above.

Perhaps I'm being unfair to say that the view of Rand and most Objectivists is that revolutionary social change must occur via ideological revolution from above. Rand clearly saw the possibility of it happening by other means, since she described such a process in "Atlas" - although I suppose it would be more accurate to say that the subversion of the existing social order was from below, while the imposition of the new one would be from above by the exiles returning from Galt's Gulch after the old one was safely gone.

Still, what I see in a lot of Objectivist historical analysis is an overemphasis on ideology, to the point where social situations are described as being ideological combinations, not concrete patterns of interpersonal relationships (such as Reed's description of post-Soviet Russia). I also see a neglect of non-ideological factors such as technology, economics, military power, etc.

Sciabarra's use of the term "levels of analysis" to refer to these different kinds of factors seems to suggest some sort of order of priority in which the ideological level may be primary and all the rest subordinate. Perhaps that isn't intentional, but I would like to make it clear that I see these factors as operating more independently than that.

Post 63

Sunday, June 8, 2003 - 5:33pmSanction this postReply
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:Adam Reed- This is exactly why Rand insisted that concepts are not "universals."

David Tomlin- Where did she say that?

In _Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology_, Rand wrote "The issue of concepts (known as 'the problem of universals') is philosophy's central issue." It seems as if she meant to equate the terms.

Post 64

Monday, June 9, 2003 - 6:54pmSanction this postReply
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:Rick Zuma- Turning now to Islamism (as opposed to Iraq), let me raise the following point in regard to both David’s and Chris’ view that it is our military that invokes a violent response. Is this really plausible?

David Tomlin- Yes. I posted a link to an excellent Cato paper on this subject. As I said at the time, I'm still waiting for someone to rebut it.

Before Gulf War 1, when bin Laden turned on the U.S., the group most promininent in anti-U.S. terror was Hezbollah. They were retaliating for U.S. military involvement in Lebanon.

I would add a qualification that I neglected before. Violence may be provoked by actions not involving the U.S. military. Robert Kennedy was assassinated in retaliation for U.S. support of Israel. Embassy personnel in Iran were taken hostage in retaliation for U.S. support of the Shah.

:Rick- Before 9/11, which country did we militarily conquer and establish a puppet regime?

David- The implied premise is that no military action short of conquest is likely to provoke retaliation. This is obvious nonsense. The U.S. wasn't conquered on 9-11.

:Rick- Is culture so fragile or insignificant that the meager military presence prior to 9/11 should be such a significant factor in the overall fundamentalist Islamic movement?

David- Loaded question.

:Rick- But notice that we no longer see the street demonstrations in favor of bin Laden.

David- I've also stopped demonstrating against U.S. foreign policy, for the moment, but that doesn't mean I'm any happier about it.

I don't put much confidence in opinion polls. For what it's worth, a recent poll suggests bin Laden remains popular, and his popularity increased with the Iraq War.
http://www.iht.com/articles/98404.html

:Rick- Where is the big uprising that Islamist hoped and we feared?

David- What big uprising would that be? What exactly was said about it, and by whom?

I recall Richard Holbrooke speculating about the possibility of on uprising in one or more Islamic countries. IIRC he was particularly concerned about Pakistan. My reaction was that it seemed only a very remote possibility.

:Rick- I suggest that within Arab and Islamic cultures, nothing gains respect more than military triumph –

David- If that were so:

1. There would be no intifada in Palestine.

2. The Israelis would still be in Lebanon.

3. The Russians would still be in Afghanistan, and would have pacified Chechnya.

4. The French would still be in Algeria.

5. The U.S. would be getting a different reception in Iraq.

http://tinylink.com/?F21PAyX9R6

http://tinylink.com/?1lkBXMpRwE

http://www.menewsline.com/stories/2003/june/06_08_2.html

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/6036094.htm

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/world/story/0,4386,193594,00.html

Your suggestion has nothing behind it but bigotry, self-flattery, and wishful thinking.

:Rick- I find it hard to believe that this meager structural factor is so culturally fundamental.

David- The impact of blockade on the people of Iraq has not been meager. The presence of "infidel" troops in Saudi Arabia is not meager from the standpoint of bin Laden and his company.

I don't know what you mean by "culturally fundamental."

Post 65

Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 5:44pmSanction this postReply
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These two articles together make the strongest case I have yet seen for the possibility of successful "nation building" in Iraq. Both are longish, but worth the time in my opinion.

http://www.policyreview.org/apr03/kurtz.html

http://www.policyreview.org/jun03/diamond.html

Do the arguments in these articles shed any light on the issues of this thread?

I think it is true that British India is a better model than Germany or Japan. But there are important differences between India then and Iraq now. Nationalism has become a force of tremendous importance, as has the Islamist reaction against modernity. Conflicts over Israel and oil have revived folk memories of the Crusades in the Middle East, and modern communications have spread them to the rest of the Islamic world. American rule in Iraq can be expected to arouse fiercer resentment, in a much shorter time, than British rule in India.

Indeed, if creating liberal democracy in Iraq is the work of a generation at least, what use is it in the "war on terror"? Americans want to feel safer _now_, not only after a quarter of a century.

Post 66

Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 4:18amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, David, for two very interesting articles. With regard to the first article, "Democratic Imperialism: A Blueprint," by Stanley Kurtz, there are some very interesting lessons to be learned from the experience of the British in India. I do think there is a distinct difference, however, between the predominantly free-market model of 19th century Britain and the predominantly corporatist model of the 20th century United States. But even 19th century Britain had its classical liberal critics. See, for example, a post of mine to the Philosophy of Objectivism list on "Historical Interpretations of Interventionism & Colonialism" (especially the sections on "British Colonialism" and "Herbert Spencer: Foe of Colonialism"):

http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra/essays/internet1201-503.htm#22-April-2003

With regard to the essay, "Universal Democracy?," by Larry Diamond, I was especially interested in the section of his article entitled "What is to be done?"---an echo of a question once asked by both Chernyshevsky and Lenin (and by that other "Russian Radical," Ayn Rand, in the form of "What can one do?"). I agree with Diamond's suggestion that "trade, travel, and exchanges of all kinds" are prime means of opening up "closed" societies. Diamond is also correct about the folly and "utterly perverse structural logic of aid agencies and especially the World Bank, whose officials are given portfolios of money to lend and projects to initiate with the understanding that their careers will suffer if they do not push the money out the door." Diamond's comments are worth repeating here:

"Part of the reason has been fear that if we lean too heavily on weak, oppressive, rotten states, they will collapse altogether into new humanitarian emergencies. Instead, we dawdle and fund them while they disintegrate more slowly and millions of their people live shorter, nastier, more brutish lives because of abusive governance. Finally, part of the problem has been the conflicting priorities of bilateral donors (including the United States) that still want to maintain friendly client states around the world. Some thought this dualism — a polite word for hypocrisy — would come to an end with the demise of the Cold War. And indeed, it did subside for a time. But with the inception of the new war on terrorism since September 11, the problem of selling short our principles in order to nurture authoritarian clients has been reborn with a vengeance."

Diamond calls for "a conceptual revolution in foreign aid," because too "[m]uch of it goes to countries ruled by corrupt, authoritarian regimes. If that aid is delivered to and through civil society rather than the corrupt state itself, it may do some good. But too much is wasted, and there is too little effort to generate leverage for real political change. The big problem is the other donors: the World Bank, the regional development banks, the Japanese, and many of the European aid agencies."

But if Diamond---or anyone else---wants a ~real~ conceptual revolution, then the ~only~ model to adopt is one of unadulterated global free trade: the end of subsidies, regulations, prohibitions, privileges, and all those forms of "pull peddling" that I highlight in my article in my discussion of Rand's critique of the "New Fascism."

Cheers,
Chris
---
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra/notablog.htm
---

Post 67

Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 6:03amSanction this postReply
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Sorry, David, but you don’t deal with the substance of my questions. To answer each of your points would require substantial description just to outline my ideas and context before we deal with the specifics. For example, only then can we analyze statements by Islamists and distinguish what is propaganda from what is an indication of their motives and movement – as you and Cato attribute significance to acts and statements far different than I would.

Since you disagree with my broad categorizations, we don’t share a context to deal with events and details. Obviously, you must then suspect my viewpoint as rife with “bigotry” and overgeneralizations. I believe we are too far apart at this point. I just wanted to acknowledge that I read you post and respect our current differences.

Post 68

Friday, June 13, 2003 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
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:Rick- Sorry, David, but you don’t deal with the substance of my questions.

David- If you would care to explain how I have failed, I would be happy to try again.

In the part of your post to which I was responding, you asked the following questions. I have numbered them for reference, with some consolidations.

1) . . . in regard to both David’s and Chris’ view that it is our military that invokes a violent response. Is this really plausible?

2) Before 9/11, which [Islamic] country did we militarily conquer and establish a puppet regime? Morocco? Algeria? Libya? Egypt? Jordan? Syria? Iraq? Arabia? Iran? Pakistan? Even Iran established an Islamist regime without invoking the response of our military. Did we overthrow and re-establish a friendly regime?

3) Is culture so fragile or insignificant that the meager military presence prior to 9/11 should be such a significant factor in the overall fundamentalist Islamic movement?

4) Where is the big uprising that Islamist hoped and we feared?

5) Was it too great a presence that invoked an Islamist attack or was it too meager and hesitant a military response that emboldened a fantasy of taking down the “paper tiger”?

6) I find it hard to believe that this meager structural factor is so culturally fundamental. Don’t you?

(2) and (4) are rhetorical. I discussed the significance of both. I hope you are not complaining that I didn't explicitly "answer" them. If it's important to you, then I agree that the answers to both are negative.

I answered (1) with this

http://www.cato.org/pubs/fpbriefs/fpb50.pdf

Your response was "To answer each of your points would require substantial description just to outline my ideas and context before we deal with the specifics. For example, only then can we analyze statements by Islamists and distinguish what is propaganda from what is an indication of their motives and movement – as you and Cato attribute significance to acts and statements far different than I would."

I take this to mean that you could rebut the Cato paper, but you don't have time. Fair enough. But, such an assertion hardly justifies "you don’t deal with the substance of my questions."

(3) is, as I said, an example of a "loaded question." The classic example is "Have you stopped beating your wife?" Such a question presupposes propositions not stipulated.

In this case, the presuppositions are that U.S. military involvement in Islamic countries can be fairly characterized as "meager", and that such involvement would only provoke violent retaliation if "culture" is to some unspecified degree "fragile or insignificant".

I have stated why I disagree with the first. I don't understand the second.

(5) you may fairly reproach me with having skipped. My position on the first part was already clear, and I had nothing pertinent to say about the second part.

On reflection, I do have something to add. Consider that the Russians inflicted a reign of terror on the Afghans, and later did the same to the Chechens. Even so, the Russians were driven from Afghanistan, have failed to pacify Chechnya, and are still afflicted with terrorism on their own soil.

Would you characterize the Russian policies as "meager and hesitant military response"? If so, what policy would escape that charge, short of genocide?

(6) repeats the disputed "meager" characterization. It also echoes (3) with an obscure allusion to culture, but with a difference of emphasis. (3) suggests that U.S. military activity would only provoke retaliation if "culture" is, to some unspecified degree, "fragile and insignificant". (6) suggests that such retaliation would imply that U.S. military activity is itself, again to some unspecified degree, "culturally fundamental."

I responded to (6) by stating "I don't know what you mean by 'culturally fundamental.'" This was an implicit invitation for you to explain your meaning, which you have so far declined. I submit that such a request for clarification, implicit or explicit, is the only way to "deal with the substance" of a question, when the question is not understood.

:Rick- Since you disagree with my broad categorizations, we don’t share a context to deal with events and details.

David- LOL. Is that your best smokescreen?

How does one support, or criticize, "broad categorizations", except by examining "events and details"?

:Rick- Obviously, you must then suspect my viewpoint as rife with “bigotry” and overgeneralizations.

David- That's neither obvious nor true. I said nothing about your viewpoint being "rife" with anything. I used the word "bigotry" in response to a single statement - "I suggest that within Arab and Islamic cultures, nothing gains respect more than military triumph . . ."

This is a popular meme, particularly with Objectivists. I am sincerely curious as to whether this peculiar stereotype depends on some sliver of fact. I submit that centuries of history expose it as a falsehood. I have cited some relevant events from recent history.

Even to "suggest" such a thing, there must be some basis. _Why_ do you suggest it? Is it just because others say it, and you think it sounds good? Can't you give a single reason for this "suggestion"?

:Rick- I believe we are too far apart at this point. I just wanted to acknowledge that I read you post and respect our current differences.

David- Your are under no obligation to continue a discussion that you find is not worth your time. But I take exception to ". . . you don’t deal with the substance of my questions." Will you back that up with some explanation? Which questions? What mysterious "substance" have I overlooked?

Post 69

Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
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Another relevant and timely quote, from Rand's article "Moral Inflation":

"There still are people in this country who lost loved ones in World War I. There are more people who carry the unhealed wounds of World War II, of
Korea, of Vietnam. There are the disabled, the crippled, the mangled of those wars' battlefields. No one has ever told them why they had to fight nor what their sacrifices accomplished; it was certainly not 'to make the
world safe for democracy' -- look at that world now. The American people have borne it all, trusting their leaders, hoping that someone knew the purpose of that ghastly devastation."

Post 70

Friday, June 20, 2003 - 5:21amSanction this postReply
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Roderick, that is one phenomenal quote. I'd venture to say that if you cited that quote without identifying the name of its source, too many "Objectivists" would dismiss it as some gibberish from a "left-winger" or a "libertarian isolationist."

While so many people within Objectivism have debated the issues surrounding the war in Iraq and the war on terrorism in general, too many of them remain ~ignorant~ of Rand's broader critique of US foreign and domestic policy. Few people have really ~grappled~ with that critique and with the moral outrage that she expressed in quotes such as the one you cite.

It is my hope that my own article will have contributed to a long overdue and relentless reclamation project: To save Rand from some of her most loyal "followers."

Chris

===
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra/notablog.htm
===

Post 71

Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 10:01amSanction this postReply
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Just a note to add here... after watching, and cursing while watching, all the Sunday morning talk shows, I just wanted to note that Sen. Luger said to George Stephanopolous this morning that the U.S. is now moving toward a "Five Year Plan" for 'nation-building' in Iraq.

Is it just me, or does ~anybody~ see the irony that the new global social engineers are now using the language of the old ~socialist~ engineers? Five year plan, eh?

Cheers,
Chris

---
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sciabarra/notablog.htm
---

Post 72

Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 5:38pmSanction this postReply
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Ah, but it's our "new and improved" Five Year Plan!

Post 73

Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
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In the quote above, from Rand's article "Moral Inflation" - there is one telling phrase: "The American people have borne it all, trusting their leaders....."

As I have scanned the comments on this forum - on the matter of the Iraq invasion, and the supposed reasons for it - what has stood out like a sore thumb to me is the blind trust shown by people who purport to value reason.

The war was justified on the grounds that Iraq possessed WMD, that it posed an imminent threat to the west, that there was some link between Al Qaeda and Hussein etc.

However, all of these assertions were made by politicians - supported by a compliant US media who didn't bother to do any investigative journalism.

The reasons were stated as facts. We were supposed to believe such facts - without any corroborating evidence.

What I noted was the willingness of people to simply believe their leaders - and I speak particularly of American people, who appear to display a blind trust in their leaders.

Now, this may be understandable for mainstream Americans - the true believing flag-wavers - but I hadn't expected self-confessed Objectivists to so quickly fall for it.

I know what my own reaction was, as the war of words lead up to the real war. I simply didn't believe what was being said. I could see no evidence to prove any of the assertions being made. Just political rhetoric.

I had the distinct feeling of being hoodwinked by a master conman.

What is it with people, when they so slavishly believe their leaders - when history shows that such leaders are simply not to be believed?

There is so much historical evidence of "leaders" lying to their people - that this fact alone should have given rise to a healthy skepticism. But this was not the case - not in America. And not, apparently, on this forum.

Each night (before the Iraq war), I used to turn on TV and listen to these leaders in disbelief. And I asked myself, why do Americans believe their leaders so unquestioningly?

The only answer I can come up with is Americans have a deep respect for authority - a respect that is missing in much of the rest of the world. This "respect" may also explain why America is such a religious nation - or, perhaps the other way around, that America's deep religious streak explains its unwavering respect and trust of authority.

Personally, I see no valid reason to trust authority in this way, and events since the "end" of the war have only served to confirm my opinion.

Post 74

Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 3:20pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you for your thoughts on this, David.

Through this conflict, I, personally, have given George W. Bush the benefit of the doubt far more than the doubt itself. I, personally, have thought that the man, eloquent though he isn't, was at least of the determined belief that what he was doing was ~right~. And I think he still believes this.

If he lied, and if this is proven, I'd be among those calling for his impeachment.

But if he didn't lie, if he simply believed what he was told by various neoconservative foreign policy advisors, if it should end up that all the ~official~ reasons for the Iraqi war were an illusion, then I'd venture to say that Bush himself is the "useful idiot." It was Lindsay Perigo who argued that the antiwar types were giving aid and comfort to Saddam Hussein: he called them "useful idiots," borrowing the term from Lenin, because they ~enabled~ the policies of a despot in refusing to destroy his regime.

But if Bush is nothing more than the "useful idiot" for the neoconservative foreign policy establishment, then we will paying the price for these policies for ~years~ to come.

In the end, however, I doubt the American people are that stupid. In the end, I think the willingness of a majority of Americans to back Bush all comes down to the horror of September 11, 2001. That date will haunt many Americans, as it no doubt haunts Bush, because it was a ~failure~ of US ~defense~, a failure of such monumental proportions on so many levels that it has been burned into the consciousness of a nation.

All the more reason to forge a new, consistent, principled foreign policy, coupled with a new, consistent, principled domestic policy, a veritable revolution against the statism, evil, and irrationality that made 9/11 possible.

BTW, for a very hard-hitting analysis of the "Objectivist" and "libertarian" accommodationists of neoconservative foreign policy, take a look at Arthur Silber's discussion posted today.

Post 75

Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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Chris, thanks so much for the link to Arthur Silber's discussion. As I read it, I realised he was writing what I'm thinking - only much better :-)

I first read Atlas in 1982 - over 20 years ago and it certainly changed my life. However, I don't give myself the title of "Objectivist" - because I don't like anything that puts me in a box. (I'd been in the "Christian" box earlier on - and learned some hard lessons.)

However, I have always been totally inspired by Rand's ideas - and tried my best to live (and think) according to that inspiration.

I have felt utter shock at the statements of many Objectivists on the matter of Iraq and the war - including from some people I know personally, and respect.

I have been confounded as to how people who supposedly share a similar world and philosophical view to myself, could come to such a diametrically opposed conclusion about Bush and the "new right".

Reading the disscussion you quoted - I realised that "yes", indeed the USA is on the path to fascism - and I have known it for some time.

All the signs are there.

Economically, the USA is in real trouble - and all its economic fundamentals point downwards.

In this economic environment, Iraq and other foreign policy "initiatives" are not the START of empire (or some push for freedom and democracy) - but the beginning of the end of it.

We are in serious trouble.

Post 76

Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
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Sometimes a "voice from the past" can contain wisdom that's easily forgotten in the present - as this 1963 essay, "War, Peace and the State" by Murray Rothbard, illustrates:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard26.html

Post 77

Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 5:30amSanction this postReply
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I gave up on the Silber essay after the fourth paragraph.

Usually I find this sort of self-righteous, self-important Objectivist rhetoric to be mostly tedious, but occasionally amusing. Now I find that when it is employed on my side of any issue, the tedium is flavored with embarrassment.

Post 78

Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 11:07amSanction this postReply
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Silber’s article fails in so many ways that I don’t know where to start. A few points:

1. Yes, a domestic Fascist/Socialist society will give rise to a predatory foreign policy. But that does not mean real threats don’t exist that require military action. Let’s also remember that Arab/Muslim fascist societies should be subjected to this analysis first.

2. Discussing the current campaigns in the “War on Terrorism” without discussing the Islamic threat is like discussing the Cold War without any reference to Communism. I find it hard to fathom an Objectivist discussion that leaves out the philosophy of the enemy – especially when it is a primitive religion. This is mind-boggling! I understand how Bush, a religious fundamentalist, fails to identify the nature of the enemy. But Objectivists? Please Arthur!

3. Silber’s critique of Bush’s domestic policy is completely correct.

4. Rand often disparaged the current state of our culture when compared to the ideal; but she held America up as a moral paragon when compared to current regimes that are far worse. Rand was the consummate contextualist. Need references?

5. Remember, in the mid-sixties, when she saw Vietnam as a moral and existential failure? However, she was opposed to withdrawal. Given the political reality of the times she viewed withdrawal as appeasement. Rand was the consummate contextualist. (Disclosure: I was not so opposed to withdrawal at the time)

6. Here's a suggestion for discussion. Instead of proposing a defeatist appeasement policy in the face of the Islamic threat, why don’t libertarians/Objectivist jump ahead to a more important issue: NATO. Europeans want the presence of our troops to insure that we will be in the next war from the start (unlike WWI and WWII). Notice the full support we received from the governments of Eastern Europe. We could take this opportunity to withdraw from NATO before there is any threat – removal under a threat is appeasement. Instead of relying on our military welfare, the Europeans will have to re-arm. Comments?

Post 79

Friday, June 27, 2003 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, I agree, we should be withdrawing from NATO, and the Europeans should start subsidizing their own defense.

But I doubt it's ever going to happen.

On Silber, I think I should mention that he fully supports---as I do---the defeat and destruction of ~real~ threats to U.S. security from abroad. Nowhere in his articles, or mine, will one find any hint of appeasement.

The central issue therefore becomes: Is this current policy one of ~defense~ or something else entirely?

Silber says a few more things in support of the proposition that this policy is of "something else entirely" and I recommend his other two parts to your attention. Check out part two and part three.

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