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Post 20

Tuesday, September 9, 2003 - 5:38amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Christy. I agree with you that waiting, in most cases, implies that one is ashamed of one's desires.

On the other hand, it does make sense to wait until one has the time and the privacy to fully enjoy the experience. It's no fun if you rush, right?

Mind you, I noticed that Alien Youth hasn't been back. I wonder if he was offended by my calling him a diabolist.

Post 21

Saturday, November 1, 2003 - 11:01pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Alien Youth, I totally agree with you - and it's good to know that at least some people are standing up for purity. And to everyone else, I'm sorry you can't see the joy of waiting - but I guess that's you're own choice and I can't do anything to stop you. But I do wonder though, that if you're planning on having sex with so many people outside of marriage, then are you going to continue that in marriage? I know if you do that's going to cause lots of problems and you'll just be skipping from one bed to then next and never find what real love is - the kind that is commited to ONE person only. You may hate what I'm saying, but I know God's way is the best.

Post 22

Saturday, November 1, 2003 - 11:16pmSanction this postReply
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Oh ya, Alien Youth - 1Timothy 4:12. Just keep standing strong. And sorry everyone else if you don't like my Biblical references.

Post 23

Monday, November 3, 2003 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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christy
"if you're planning on having sex with so many people outside of marriage, then are you going to continue that in marriage?"

no, since marriage (usually, but not neccessarily) implies fidelity, it would be immoral to partake in extramarital sex once that contract has been agreed to. there is nothing immoral about sex before marriage, but there is clear evil in lying to your spouse. why would one lead to the other?

"you'll just be skipping from one bed to then next and never find what real love is - the kind that is commited to ONE person only"

christy, i fail to see how the greatest expression of love for another person will prevent me from finding "real love". please spend time actually exploring the morality of alternative lifestyles before declaring them to be good or bad. simply spouting condemnation without any explicit evidence is not very flattering.

Dave

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Post 24

Monday, November 3, 2003 - 11:03amSanction this postReply
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Hey Alien Youth, I totally agree with you - and it's good to know that at least some people are standing up for purity.

Judging from your comment, Christy H, purity to you means remaining ignorant of the pleasure you can experience through physical contact with a cherished partner. Is ignorance really something to stand up for? I don't think so. I'd rather stand up for knowledge, freedom, and life -- and I do just that every time I take my lady to bed.

I have no respect whatsoever for purity in the Christian sense. I only respect purity of purpose: if a man acts in a way that shows that not even God Himself can stand between him and his goal, then that's purity of purpose -- something to admire in a man.

And to everyone else, I'm sorry you can't see the joy of waiting - but I guess that's you're own choice and I can't do anything to stop you.

Joy of waiting? The joy of remaining untouched, remaining cold, of having no one with whom to share one's celebration of life? Oh, wait, I should have expected such from a Christian: Christians have to die before they can "truly live in the Kingdom of Heaven," right?

But I do wonder though, that if you're planning on having sex with so many people outside of marriage, then are you going to continue that in marriage?

Actually, Christy, I expected to go through life alone and die untouched, and made my plans accordingly. Luckily, my expectations proved wrong. But I have not had "sex with so many people", unless two women count as "so many people."

I didn't hop from bed to bed as a bachelor, and I strongly doubt that I'll do much bed-hopping when I finally marry my lady.

I know if you do that's going to cause lots of problems and you'll just be skipping from one bed to then next and never find what real love is - the kind that is commited to ONE person only.

So, my choices are restricted to chastity until marriage and bedhopping promiscuity? To Chaos with your false dichotomies, Christy H, and to Chaos with you. Yes, hopping from one bed to another behind my wife's back would cause problems galore; I'll grant you that much, but what makes you think I'd be so contemptuous of myself that I'd engage in such behavior? I do possess a great deal of pride, little girl.

As for real love: what exactly do you know about love? Do you know what it's like to look into the eyes of the woman who helped you reach heights of passion sufficient to light the skies and know that she worships you as you worship her? I do. Do you know what it's like to know that your lover looks up to you and to feel a burning need to prove yourself worthy of her? I do. Do you know what it's like to lay beside your lover and know to the roots of your mind that you would let nothing in this world part you unless she asked you to let her go? I do.

I've known that with two women, and I am proud to have done so. I was committed to the first, and would have remained at her side if she was willing to have me. She wasn't, so I kissed her goodbye and moved on. The lady I'm with now is willing, and we will marry. But we would not have known we were perfect for one another if we had not opened ourselves completely to each other -- in bed.

You may hate what I'm saying, but I know God's way is the best.

I despise what you are saying, because I know that it is a lie. You have no proof whatsoever that your sky-demon's way is "the best"; all you have is a book of myths translated from Aramaic, to Greek, to Latin, and then to English. But rather than despise you, I feel sorry for you. You see, I used to believe that book of myths too. But I'm too old for fairy tales now, and so are you.

God is a myth, Christy H; God is a myth created by men to rule men. Will you be ruled, or will you be free?

Post 25

Tuesday, November 4, 2003 - 3:21amSanction this postReply
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Before indulging in adding my two cents worth, I should probably note that my name is Catherine and I am the second of the two women mentioned in Matthew’s last post (a.k.a. “the lady I’m with now”). I note this for two reasons: 1. I am exceptionally proud to be his lady, lover, companion and partner. 2. That this information will no doubt colour and enter into my following discussion.

A Quick Note on the Issue of Purity:
Considering that Christian children are generally baptised, it would suggest that the Church and if the Church is to be considered a true mouth piece of God, then God himself, have never seen us as being truly pure. Therefore it would seem impossible to retain, that which we never really had.

Joy of Waiting for Marriage
Personally the whole argument has the feel of the Church declaring open session on my hymen. So until the Church is run by women who are married and have sex and who have any idea of how uncomfortable breaking through that thing can be, I hold that there can be no reasonable argument to waiting for the Church and God to sanction my relationship, before I have sex. (That should not be taken as a feminist argument, only an argument based on the wisdom obtained through knowledge). I take that back, there is no plausible argument that would ever convince me to consider the Church’s right to have any say on when, where or how I make love.

Marriage is generally the ultimate and very public declaration of love between two people. But love can no longer only encompass part of who we are. A healthy relationship cannot exist without mental, emotional and physical (sexual) compatibility. As the relationship prior to marriage is usually spent ensuring compatibility, it seems only logical that we endeavour to ensure that our sexual needs will also be met.

To commit ourselves to another without the knowledge that we can meet all of their needs and that they can meet all of ours, is unfair to both our partner and ourselves.
We cannot deny the importance of our sexual needs by hiding behind rules dictated by people who do not acknowledge that part of themselves. As to God, I offer only the total acceptance and celebration of who I am and my complete acceptance and worship of my partner, as a prayer that any maker should be proud to accept.

When I marry Matthew it will be the public celebration of the depths of our love and respect for each other. And yet as Matthew states every time I ask him to marry me (not as often as he asks me to marry him), we married each other on our first night together. Which is true, based on the values we attribute to ourselves, to each other and in respect to how we define marriage. (In case you’re interested: The total offering of ourselves to each other for as long as our love lasts).

Not everyone will feel or endeavour to feel this way when they make love for the first time and that is their choice and I respect that. After all, no one can tell you when the right time will be or assign a value to that moment. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t right to wait until marriage, only that the choice must be our own when choosing to loose or ultimately celebrate the relinquishment of our virginity.

Besides I’m sure that after spending the day running around on insensible shoes, downing a few too many glasses of Champaign while dealing with well wishers, photographers, caterers, flowers, music, transport and the honeymoon, that the wedding night (despite the glitz and glamour of the day) is the smartest choice for one’s first night of passion. After all it shouldn’t be the running of the bulls at Pamplona, unless of course that what your desire.

While I guess that little can be said about most first times (mine excluded), this argument is about the right to pick the time and not what happens once you make that decision.

Post 26

Tuesday, November 4, 2003 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
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Dave,
"It would be immoral to partake in extramarital sex once that contract has been agreed to. there is nothing immoral about sex before marriage, but there is clear evil in lying to your spouse." So, you see the evil in lying but not in sleeping with others besides your spouse. That's nice you believe in faithfulness during marriage - but if all you have is a contract holding you two together (and not sleeping with others after that point) then it's gotta be hard to really be committed. I think faithfulness starts before marriage - so when you are married you don't have to worry about falling in love with someone else. True love isn't bonded by a contract written on paper and words publicly spoken to each other - true love is bonded by the heart - an all-time faithfulness - which starts prior to marriage.
"I fail to see how the greatest expression of love for another person will prevent me from finding 'real love.'" The thing is that your view of love and my view of love is different. Your view of love is a passion given to another - plain infatuation. But my view of love is more than that, it's a total all-the-time commitment that doesn't say, "I'll love you if you give me sex." Sex is an extra present given in marriage.
Also - if you've already given you body to someone besides your spouse then it can't be 100% your spouse's. Sex is simply a God-given gift to be given to only your spouse. I am saving that gift for my husband and am assured that he is too. I'd find it hard to be sleeping with your spouse and have those memoires of other poeple in your head and still be totally happy. I'd also find it hard to keep my husband happy when he knows I've had a past with another man. I'm glad I'm not going to have to worry about that 'cause I'm saving my sexuality for my husband!
So you probably think I'm stupid to be waiting - but I look at it in a similar way to sports. You have to do all kinds of vigorous workouts and that's no fun - but when you finally get first place it's all worth it. I look forward to the day I can experience that same joy plus even more excitement on my wedding night.

Matthew,
"Purity to you means remaining ignorant of the pleasure you can experience through physical contact with a cherished partner." Love isn't pleause first of all - so whether I'm ignoring sex or not - it has no influence on whether I truly love someone or not.
If you want to call it ignorance or whatever, I do find it something to stand up for because my reward will be worth it when I can finally let go of everything I've been saving for my husband in marriage.
"if a man acts in a way that shows that not even God Himself can stand between him and his goal, then that's purity of purpose." First of all - I thought you didn't even believe in God. But anyway, God can't stand between anything you do if you're not accountable to Him - He doesn't control you because you have the freedom of choice - so your victory isn't really that great. But what I do find great is when two people who stand against the ways of this world - the people in this world who can seem to accomplish more in controlling you - and save sex for marriage - that's something to be proud of - and I'm glad I'll be able to experience it.
Ya - I do find a joy in remaining untouched because I know (like I've already said)it will be worth it and that my husband will be much appreciated of it too.
"Christians have to die before they can 'truly live in the kingdom of God' - right?" You could look at it that way - but the way I see is that I've died to my old ways but what I have now is so much greater and I'm not just quoting scripture either - I really mean it!
"Actually, Christy, I expected..." ha ha ha you're funny - NOT!
"So my choices are restricted to ..." I'm not just "restricted" for religious reasons - I'm waiting because I only want to have sex with my husband in marriage - I want it to actually mean something and last a lifetime - which is obviously more than what you see in it.
"As for real love..." What do I know about love? Well I know it's more than just a passion - as I said earlier. You may have had sexual experiences before - but I don't care, because I'll be able to do that and more with my husband!
So for your first woman - that obviously didn't work out - your sex life with her just didn't keep her by your side. Well, I don't want to have to go through that and being so intmate with somebody and then all the sudden have to give it up and move on to someone else.
"You have no proof whatsoever that you sky-demon's way is 'the best.'" You're right, I don't have proof - yet. But I will. And I've known others who've waited and found it to be so much worth it, and they've told me to do the same. So I am waiting and will be much more happier than you'll ever be.
"God is a myth created by men to rule men." Well I have something to say to you. You think that God - the creator of the universe - is a myth?! I don't see any myth in it at all - the fact that we get headaches from studying how complex everything is - from atoms to as big as galaxies - shows that obviously someone Who's greater than us had to make it.
So you're probably going to read through this over and over and searching between the lines saying, "OK, what can we do to contradict her and prove that God doesn't exist?" - but I don't give a rip. I stand on my faith in God and His Word and there's nothing you can do to stop me. And I'm saving sex for marriage and have no regrets. You don't even stand a chance agaonst God and me because I'm happier than I've ever been since I started trusting Him. So you just write me back in a few years when I'm married - and then we'll see who's happier!

Post 27

Tuesday, November 4, 2003 - 5:14pmSanction this postReply
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Dear Christy H,

Obviously you skipped my little rant all together. Let me just say that marriage or no, I can guarantee you that Matthew already has that happiness that you dream of obtaining, if not more. That our commitment to each other doesn't require professing before people (although we will do this), sanctioning by God (and that’s not because I don’t believe in God because I do) or writing down on paper. Because we know the value of what we have and can only hope that everyone is as lucky as we are.

We have a relationship based on the complete understanding of each other, the complete knowing of each other’s past and inclusion in each other’s future. We worship each other completely, through our love for each other’s mind and body, through our respect of each other’s beliefs, creativity, talent and sexuality.

I hope that your wedding night is blissful, because everyone deserves what I experienced on my first night. The complete giving of one’s self and receiving of one’s partner without boundaries or armour, without masks or costumes. The celebration of a love based on every element of our being, given to each other for as long as our love lasts. It might end tomorrow, but this might happen to anyone regardless of certificate or sex or both. We can only hope that it will last until time stands still and the stars fall from the sky and have faith in what we know – that every moment is precious.

No one can guarantee that they will feel the same way tomorrow. But what I know is that my respect for Matthew and his respect for me ensures that come what may, we will always have the strongest friendship that any two people can hope for.

Post 28

Tuesday, November 4, 2003 - 5:19pmSanction this postReply
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Dear Christy H,

Obviously you skipped my little rant all together. Let me just say that marriage or no, I can guarantee you that Matthew already has that happiness that you dream of obtaining, if not more. That our commitment to each other doesn't require professing before people (although we will do this), sanctioning by God (and that’s not because I don’t believe in God because I do) or writing down on paper. Because we know the value of what we have and can only hope that everyone is as lucky as we are.

We have a relationship based on the complete understanding of each other, the complete knowing of each other’s past and inclusion in each other’s future. We worship each other completely, through our love for each other’s mind and body, through our respect of each other’s beliefs, creativity, talent and sexuality.

I hope that your wedding night is blissful, because everyone deserves what I experienced on my first night. The complete giving of one’s self and receiving of one’s partner without boundaries or armour, without masks or costumes. The celebration of a love based on every element of our being, given to each other for as long as our love lasts. It might end tomorrow, but this might happen to anyone regardless of certificate or sex or both. We can only hope that it will last until time stands still and the stars fall from the sky and have faith in what we know – that every moment is precious.

No one can guarantee that they will feel the same way tomorrow. But what I know is that my respect for Matthew and his respect for me ensures that come what may, we will always have the strongest friendship that any two people can hope for.

Post 29

Tuesday, November 4, 2003 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
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My apologises for submitting the same message twice I must have got a little happy with the Post button.

Post 30

Tuesday, November 4, 2003 - 6:10pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, Christy H, I think that Jehovah is a myth. Just like Yahweh and Allah. Just like Zeus and Odin and Ahura Mazda and Marduk and every other "Big Daddy in the Sky" to which humans have kowtowed in superstitious terror. But I don't have to spend time looking for ways to contradict you. After all, logic dictates that whoever claims a premise is true must prove her claim. You claim that there is a God, yet offer nothing in the way of proof. Logic dictates that you're either mistaken -- or lying. I'll be charitable for once and assume the former.

But, hey, it doesn't really matter. It's your life, your body, and your virginity to give. If you haven't found Mr. Right yet, that's fine. It's not my place to tell you that you should have gotten laid by now. However, make sure you're waiting for a good reason. That you haven't found the man you want above all others is a good reason. That you must wait until you are married in the eyes of your patron demon is not.

"if a man acts in a way that shows that not even God Himself can stand between him and his goal, then that's purity of purpose." First of all - I thought you didn't even believe in God. But anyway, God can't stand between anything you do if you're not accountable to Him - He doesn't control you because you have the freedom of choice - so your victory isn't really that great.


No, I don't believe in God. Just because I use "God" as an abstraction intended to mean something that mere mortals cannot oppose, doesn't mean I believe in your God. At risk belaboring the point, I could just as easily have substituted Buddha, Eris, or Great Cthulhu -- but I gain little from obscure allusions.

"Actually, Christy, I expected..." ha ha ha you're funny - NOT!


If I was consistently funny, I'd be ranting on HBO alongside George Carlin and Chris Rock -- not on this site. My humor is something of an acquired taste; you don't have to enjoy it.

So for your first woman - that obviously didn't work out - your sex life with her just didn't keep her by your side. Well, I don't want to have to go through that and being so intmate with somebody and then all the sudden have to give it up and move on to someone else.


You're oversimplifying the matter, Christy H, but you've little choice as I am unwilling to give further details of my first relationship for discretion's sake.

Suffice to say, it wasn't just sex. Let's see you fall in love with a foreigner while working your way through college. Granted, it's not the wisest thing I've done, but it was damned good while it lasted.

You're right, I don't have proof - yet. But I will. And I've known others who've waited and found it to be so much worth it, and they've told me to do the same. So I am waiting and will be much more happier than you'll ever be.


If they're happy, more power to them. If you're genuinely willing to wait, then more power to you. However, I see no point in waiting to make love if it's something that both my lady and I want to do.

In all honesty, when I make love to my lady, I practice a rite holier than any sacrament offered by the Catholich Church I renounced as a younger man. I don't need grape juice and flatbread when I can experience a true communion in the arms of my beloved.

However, I can't be too angry with you. While I hold your beliefs in contempt, I have no argument with you. As CatG said in the rant she thinks you ignored, I already possess the happiness you yearn for. I've had to work hard to earn it, and I must continue to earn it, but it's worth having.

I'm proud to have shared with my lady the blissful first night of which she speaks, and joyful that I've known her embrace. And while my first relationship failed, I was able to apply what I learned to the second -- and I'm going to do it right this time.

Post 31

Tuesday, November 4, 2003 - 11:35pmSanction this postReply
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christy h
first, i commend you on your adherence to your values. even if i wouldn't make the same choice, i do respect that you stick to it. just to clarify, being faithful in a commited relationship (legal marriage or not) is something that goes without question. my definition of love is probably identical to yours. there could be no greater value than one of love for another person. i have two questions, though, and i will be brief as you have a few other posts to consider. first, is homosexuality immoral since they cannot legally get married (in the US) before having sex? secondly, my girlfriend (whom i LOVE) wants to know if you masturbate and if that plays a role in your self defined sexuality?

Dave

Post 32

Wednesday, November 5, 2003 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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Dave Voigt, your lady asked a damned smart question -- no wonder you love her.

Christy, you don't have to answer Dave's question if you're not comfortable with it, but it's in your own interest to masturbate. Not only does is sexuality a "use it or lose it" deal -- something that withers if it goes untended too long, but if you marry a man like yourself, one who remained untouched until his wedding night, then he's not going to know how to bring you pleasure. So, unless you know how to please yourself, you're not going to be able to teach him how to please you.

Men don't automatically know how to make women come; it's an acquired skill, and reading The Joy of Sex is no substitute for experience.

Post 33

Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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Well, Dave. I'm not doing that. I feel that in saving my body for my husband, that it also includes not masturbating. Plus - I only want to experience those feelings with him. And to your other question - I do think it's not appropriate to be homosexual - whether the government says that or not. I base my beliefs simply on God's Word - and I'm looking for a man - a true, Godly man. There are so many things in to day's world that people are accepting or tolerating that they shouldn't be. I just have to go back to God's Word and find what He says and spend time with him - and I do that every day!
Matthew, I'm sorry you still don't understand my commitment I've made - but you can't relate to it obviously so I can't expect you to ever agree with me.
CatG, I'm sorry I didn't get to reading yours. So anyway, I'm not going to try to contradict everything you said, because, as you already know, we have different beliefs on love and marriage or before marriage so I'll just kinda tell you some more of what I feel. I know you may have found your love in Matthew - I can't try to deny that. But to get more into why I'm waiting I'll say that I'm not waiting for sex until just after I'm made a public commitment - but because I'm waiting until that commitment has been made to spend the rest of my life with my husband. Sex should be something that bonds you together for the rest of your life and only takes place in marriage. I don't want to have that deep of relationship with someone without KNOWING I'll spend the rest of my life with them.
I appreciate you wanted to know more of my faith, but I may not be back. I may look over the responses but I probably won't respond unless you really have some questions you're just dying to know what I think of. I don't feel it's worth my time to always be doing this and I feel I proved my point and shared my faith. I'm only in high school and feel God has other things for me and in just standing strong amongst my friends and peers. The fact is I'm happy where I'm at now. I love just worshipping God through music and at concerts like Michael W. Smith and Rebecca St. James - which were both great concerts! That's where I'm satisfied - just in worshipping my God and spending time with Him. I don't feel a need for more. The people of the world are just living for themselves and never are satisfied - but I've found by taking my focus off myself and putting it God - I'm happier than ever!

Post 34

Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
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I'm only in high school and feel God has other things for me and in just standing strong amongst my friends and peers.


Hmph. A high-school girl. I suspect that you might have a different opinion if high school was a battlefield for you and not a place where you can "stand strong amongst your friends and peers".

I used to believe in God, Christy H, but after getting repeatedly slapped across my ugly mug by reality I figured out that God either didn't exist, didn't care, or actively enjoyed watching people suffer. I'm not as bitter now that I no longer believe in god.

I suspect that you're only commited to God because your friends are; and that your faith wouldn't be as strong if you stood alone against the world.

Post 35

Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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Matthew, I'm sorry you still don't understand my commitment I've made - but you can't relate to it obviously so I can't expect you to ever agree with me.


No, I can't understand why you would deny yourself, why you would turn away from the experiences the real world can offer in favor of a half-life based on myths. I can't understand why you would rather pray than think, why you would rather be God's child than your own person. I dealt with quite a few girls like you in high school, Christy, who thought it better to serve in heaven than to live to the fullest on earth.

If you don't post again, that's fine. Given your beliefs, SOLO really isn't the place for you. But if you're still reading, then know that by my standards I'm already married to CatG; we bound ourselves to each other the first time we made love.

Post 36

Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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christy h said:
"I base my beliefs simply on God's Word"

"I just have to go back to God's Word and find what He says"

this leaves me speechless...well, okay not really, but this is the attitude that totally confuses me about society today. i understand the "benefits" a person receives from the pschological crutch of religion, but where does the word of god come from? how do people accept this principle. i guess that's what ayn rand ment by "blank out". more frightenly, the "word of god" is christy h's source for her MORALITY. her example here of condemning premarital sex as IMMORAL is based not even on her OWN evaluation of people, but an evaluation of people's behavior compared to the explicit mandates of a 2000 year old text. i dont really care to insult people or attack them , but i have no tools available to me that enable me to even begin to understand WHY a person would make that choice.

in a related topic: the cover story of the current Newsweek involves the public desire to incorporate spirituality into healthcare. a survey stated that over 70%(!!!) of the american people believe that praying for the health of ill person will have a direct effect on improving their condition. it seems that our country is full of people just like christy h. why is my view of reality in such a stark contrast to the VAST MAJORITY of society?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dave

Post 37

Thursday, November 6, 2003 - 5:16pmSanction this postReply
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I found something you should read, Christy. See what your future holds if you persist in obeying an oft-translated book of myths instead of thinking and living for yourself.

"Horribly Awkward First Sexual Encounter 'Worth the Wait' for Christian Newlyweds"

Post 38

Saturday, November 8, 2003 - 2:08amSanction this postReply
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I have been trying to behave myself for the last few days, but to hell with it.

Quote from Christy H's last post: "I do think it's not appropriate to be homosexual - whether the government says that or not. I base my beliefs simply on God's Word"

For the most part I can understand and respect other peoples faith, but I have no tolerance for bigotry and small-mindedness. Or miss placed self-righteousness.

I spent 13 years in Catholic School and while I no longer believe in the Church, I do still believe in God as the creator of the Universe. (Which will probably surprise those who are aware that I am Matthew's lover and given the amount of God bashing that he does on a regular basis).

I know many Homosexual/Queer people (Queer being the term that some of my friends prefer to identify with). All I can say is that they are beautiful creations, often more compassionate and loving than some of their heterosexual counterparts. Surprisingly many of them still worship a faith that would prefer to see them deliver to damnation. But unlike faith their sexuality isn't a choice, it is part of who they are.

If we are to be expected to view ourselves as God's children (his creations), then shouldn’t we also believe that we are made in the perfection that he wished to create us in and in light this, accept all facets of who we are?

Isn’t then, our very existence a clearer message from God, than a book based on stories passed down generation to generation?

I for one remember exactly how the game Chinese Whispers always ended.

So I pose the following question based on faith: As a believer in God, which is the truer portrayal of his word - A human being standing before you created in the perfection that God intended or a series of stories told to generation after generation, transcribed and translated until it reached the form that we find it in today?

Post 39

Sunday, November 9, 2003 - 6:32amSanction this postReply
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Matthew, you wrote:

I see more than just rules in Christianity, Alien Youth. I see a religion that condemns me as evil because I possess reason, emotion, and volition. I can think, feel, and choose -- and by Christianity's standards that makes me a sinner. Remember the myth of Adam and Eve? Original sin?

I see more in Christianity than mere rules. I see pure evil. A truly loving god would not demand servility, blind faith, fearful obedience, and self-negating worship of its creations. Considering what your Bible says God demands of his followers, I can only conclude that you worship a demon.


I have to say, it seems to me you're reacting against your experience of the Catholic "Church" rather than Christianity: Papal infallibility, auricular confession, justification by works, Mary worship, transubstantiation, idolatory and pagan rituals - all these heresies were exposed in the Reformation as non-Biblical.

Humour me for a moment while I talk about God as if He exists and created us. He gave us a means of survival, our reason. Of course He wants us to feel - it is one means by which He relates to us. Volition? He desires that we choose to know Him - He doesn't force it, but gives us free will. So, reason, emotion and volition are not sinful, although some of what we feel and desire can be.

Having chosen to obey God's commandments, through a reasoned faith, you can trust His purposes by the nature of who He is. Indeed, His rules concur with our own moral sense and are certainly not pure evil, (even if some Catholic dictates have been). And He expressly forbids any worship of His creations - that is idolatory. Considering what you say the Bible says God demands of his followers, I can only conclude that you have not read it. (It's futile to read it unless you believe in God - return to that first.)

CatG, at least you've not thrown out God with the Catholic Church; let me address your question:

As a believer in God, which is the truer portrayal of his word - A human being standing before you created in the perfection that God intended or a series of stories told to generation after generation, transcribed and translated until it reached the form that we find it in today?

Without the Bible, how do you know what "God intended"?

The Bible is not simply a series of stories that devolved into their present form. If you sincerely look past the liberal spin and into the question of the historicity of the Bible, you'll discover it's a trustworthy document that records actual events. (I touched a little on this matter in regards to the New Testament in the "Near Death Experiences" thread.) You attribute creation to God - how much easier is it to believe that through a desire to communicate with His created beings He has inspired and preserved the writings of certain men? Believing in God, you'll discover this is the only conclusion to be drawn.

God authenticates His Word, and therefore it is authoritative. Thus, we know we do not share the original perfection of the first humans, Adam and Eve, but are made after their image, post-Fall. We are imperfect - religious or not, we all know this.

I accept that many homosexuals believe their condition is part of who they are, but must defer to the Biblical diagnosis. Some have become Christians and have gotten rid of this demon. Others are used by Satan as fodder for scumbag politics (none of those here, I know), or to splinter churches. No self-righteousness here, I have plenty of my own faults; condemn the sin, not the sinner.

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