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Monday, October 27, 2003 - 6:24amSanction this postReply
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Jeff, this is a very informative article. Now that I know about IRV, I'd like to see it implemented; my vote might actually mean something then.

Post 1

Monday, October 27, 2003 - 10:53amSanction this postReply
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Hey Jeff,

Very good article, got me thinking and realizing I don't understand how things work now well enough to compare the two processes.

Because even in the way we vote now, we start with a big pool of candidates that slowly gets narrowed down until there are two or three people running. Technically, we should be voting based on the issues now too, with each step of the way narrowing the candidates down.

Why would we vote for 'most winnable' now, but vote for people's issues on IRV? Why wouldn't there still be campaigns & moneies involved and basically the same process as now, just maybe condensed and online instead of in person?

I suspect I should just look into both methods better, but maybe you have some quick answers to my questions?

Thanks!
Elizabeth

Post 2

Monday, October 27, 2003 - 12:01pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent article, Jeff. I think this is a huge idea, and could radically change the way politics is done. Thanks for sharing it.

Elizabeth, it's not narrowing the candidates from many to one, but how that narrowing is actually done. The current mechanism makes your vote worth all or nothing for a candidate. Say a Republican, a Democrat, and a Libertarian run for office. It may be that the Democrat wins with 40% of the votes, while Republican has 30%, and the Libertarian has 30%. It may be that 60% of the people would rather have EITHER the Republican or Libertarian win then than the Democrat. But because they split their votes, the weaker one wins.

Now what's the implication here? Well, if you want to win, you shouldn't split the votes. You're better off voting for a person you don't really like (the Republican) but prefer to the other big player (the Democrat). If you vote for the guy you really want to win, you get the worst of all worlds.

And this is why polical primaries exist. In the past, you'd have multiple candidates from a single party running in an election. One party (the Democrats) were smart enough to have a pre-election run off, so they only put one party member forward. The election was then between one Democrat, and several Republicans. Since your vote is all or nothing, the Republicans split their votes, and the Democrats won. The Republicans had primaries as well after that.

Primaries have interesting side-effects, as Jeff mentioned. The first is that when a candidate is running in the primaries, he tends to be more radical to be closer to the middle of his party. After the primaries, they want to move closer to their opponents party, so they can hopefully get some of their votes (and the independents!).

Also, the winner of the primary has to go up against the winner of the other's primary. So again you don't vote for the guy you want to win, but the guy you think can win against the other. The Democrats running against Bush are currently trying to prove that they are the only ones that can run against Bush and have a chance of winning.

And during the final election, you often get demonizing of the other candidate. The parties realize that you don't just get votes from people that like you. You often get votes from people who just don't want the other person to win. So you promote yourself as the lesser of two evils. So people say George Bush is evil, and if you vote for him he'll destroy the economy to prop up his oil companies, will throw old people and children on the streets, and will enslave the masses (in a different way then the Democrats want).

The primaries, and the "all or nothing" vote have the consequence of giving strong incentives for people to vote for someone other than who they actually want. You vote for someone in order to prevent someone else from winning. It's all backwards. As Jeff has pointed out, this new style of voting could undo that. It would allow people to vote for who they wanted, without fearing that they're wasting their vote.

He mentioned that this voting process would be useful for third parties, since people wouldn't have to fear the consequences of voting the way they want. But if this voting process were combined with the removal of primaries, it would also benefit the two big parties. Instead of finding their least offensive member who nobody really likes, they can pick between real choices.

Post 3

Monday, October 27, 2003 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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Liz, What Joe said, but for a shorter and more general answer, with plurality voting each voter votes based on how they think other people will vote, whereas in IRV it doesn't matter how other people vote, you just vote your own preference. So the way it is now, the main consideration is, "Who is everyone else going to vote for?", under IRV, the main consideration is, "who do I want to vote for?"

Post 4

Monday, October 27, 2003 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

That too.

Another interesting side-effect that might happen if this ever went through is a complete break up of the two big parties.

I think most people see two big categories of political stances. Economic, and social. The Democrats are roughly for social freedom and economic slavery. The Republicans are reversed.

But that's the parties. Each party is full of people who merely oppose the other party more. So there are many Republicans who are essentially Libertarian, and consider the economics to be the key issue. They're willing to accept the crazy religious nuts because it slows are slide into socialism. Similarly, the religious wackos are all about imposing their "moral" creeds onto people, and are willing to put up with some economic liberty if it'll mean video cameras in every bedroom and pregnant women strapped to tables to protect the fetuses.

On the other hand, you get some people voting Democrat primarily to oppose the religious crazies. They might not find the economic stuff very interesting, but their biggest concern is the social freedoms. And of course, there are the dictators wannabes who want to loot businesses for their own twisted ends, and don't mind who you have sex with as long as you pay them protection money.

It's this incredibly stupid house of cards that exist only because, as Jeff said, everyone is thinking "how will everyone else vote". IRV could bust the whole thing up.

Post 5

Sunday, November 2, 2003 - 5:07pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, guys! I am still not 100% clear on it, but that will only come from rereading and seeing how it works (like by going through an example). :) Still, have a much better sense. I just need to run through an example to see what the likelihood is that the votes won't trickle down to the same 2 candidates as run in current elections. Could be the difference in how they campaign, that the votes will be more distributed, everything you said above!

-Liz

Post 6

Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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I believe this is also referred to as STV (single transferrable vote not SEXUALLY transmitted voting!).

This is actually used in voting for the Australian senate, although it doesn't seem to have improved their politics much (admittedly they're doing better than NZ).

Some more details here to bamboozle you:

http://www.eca.gov.au/systems/proportional/proportion_rep.htm

Cheers,

Anthony

Post 7

Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Jeff,

I helped to set up the RecallSanity.org website (I'm the big donor who kicked in $60 to get it on the web. . .), and your article brought a smile to my face. Thanks for writing about your experience on the site. You might also want to check out www.fairvoteCA.org and www.CalIRV.org to hook up with California advocates of instant runoff voting.

Post 8

Friday, February 13, 2004 - 7:07pmSanction this postReply
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Hey, glad you liked the article.

Post 9

Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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IRV (also called STV) is good, but it has some problems of its own. Most people I know who've spent a good amount of time doing research into various voting methods tend to prefer Condorcet over IRV.

Here's a website with a decidedly pro-Condorcet/anti-IRV stance, which explains some of the issues:

http://electionmethods.org/

Post 10

Wednesday, July 2, 2014 - 6:36amSanction this postReply
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IRV is "instant run-off voting."  You rank your choices; they are not mutually exclusive.  Someone with tremendous third-place support could win over someone with thin majority numbers.  A related proposal is that candidates who earn at least 1% of the vote should take proportional representation with them to the legislature.  So, candidates with 31% and 47% etc. could aggregate their fractions when they in turn vote for proposals, bills, and laws. 

 

It used to be in the USA that each Congressional District represented 10,000 registered (eligible) voters.  The Permanent Apportionment Act (1911)  set the number of Congressional representatives at 435.  Each one now speaks for about 700,000 people. (Note that empty places such as Montana and Alaska are exceptions: for them, it is worse.)



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