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Post 40

Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:28amSanction this postReply
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Daniel:

Me: >>You've taken Stolyarov to task for some factual errors regarding Beatles lyrics ... <<

You: >>Look, that's just not the point. The point is: does Stolyarov know what he's talking about? All the indicators are clearly NO!<<

I agree that Stolyarov's errors regarding a couple of Beatles songs are not the point.  They are minor.  I think he attributed to the Beatles a KNOWING nihilism in their work, whereas the truth is their work is drenched in the post-modern precedents to nihilism -- i.e., irony, cynicism, skepticism, and relativism -- rather than nihilism itself.

None of this detracts from the point of his article.  We have a popular culture that has irrationally dispensed with all standards of excellence in favor of stimulating our base selves.  This is nihilistic and corrosive of rational thought.  Little wonder then that the culture of totalitarian states is also nihilistic.

Again I ask, do you really disagree with any of this?

Regards,
Citizen Rat a.k.a. Bill


Post 41

Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:41amSanction this postReply
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Russ:

You wrote:  >>I was taking into question coalition with the institutions Citizen Rat mentioned: Churches, Public Schools, etc... I see nothing wrong with an art coalition as you present for your example. I do see something wrong in a coalition with Churches, bulwarks of altruism (a product of nihilism that you identify as a cause to the problems with pop-culture).<<

As a Roman Catholic I can assure you that the Church does not teach altruism as Rand defined it.  To perhaps oversimplify, it teaches the well-known "Golden Rule" and the lesser known "Silver Rule" -- i.e., don't do to others as you would not have done to yourself.  If you examine these truths rationally, you'll find that they are not at odds with Objectivist principles.

As for not eating meat on Lenten Fridays ...

Regards,
Citizen Rat a.k.a. Bill


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Post 42

Friday, March 12, 2004 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
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What is the most important thing about christianity: jesus christ. What did he do: He was sacrificed. I don't need to go further. If you think that christianity or the catholic church promotes rational self-interest and does not teach altruism, then you are intentionally blinding yourself to the subject.

*btw the "Golden Rule" is nothing but deontology, which is anathema to Objectivism.

Post 43

Friday, March 12, 2004 - 9:20pmSanction this postReply
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I have a few moments to spare in responding to further comments in this discussion. Mr. Elliot wrote:

You have to loosen up a bit, man.  If you're analysing every thing you see or hear to quantify and/or qualify it as "true humour" then that's a little stilted and pedantic. I know funny when I see it or hear it and I don't need post-Randian analysis to tell me where it's at.

Here's the the thing: if your sense of life is in order you will not (as a matter of automatisation) laugh at those things that denigrate man's greatness. Look after your SOL and all else will follow
.

I ask Mr. Elliot to recall that, according to Rand, emotions and emotional responses are lightning-swift subconscious integrations of conscious value premises. Given that a sense of life is a thoroughly systematized (automatically, of course) set of emotional responses, it can indeed be of immense help in evaluating a given esthetic matter without the need to re-derive the principles on which it is founded. But it is necessary, in my judgment, to know the foundations of one's sense of life and constantly check it against basic premises so as to be certain that one acts and responds from the proper motives. I have, for example, deliberated about the reasons for my response to a comedy such as The Simpsons:

* I admire the witty humor, the mockery of the stupidity and superficiality that all too often plagues modern culture, and the show's exposure of such ludicrous (though frightening) trends as environmentalism, nativism, and imposition of religious views and the stifling of science (in the "Angel" episode).
* However, I take issue with  the scant few episodes where nudity is present (because of my premise that certain parts of the human form must not be given any public exposure or even the suggestion of such exposure, even if it is in a mere cartoon. This premise is derived from thorough conscious deliberations of mine, such as "The Public-Private Ethical Distinction" http://www.geocities.com/rationalargumentator/publicprivate.html ) and where the entire episode is just a rehash of scenes from past, more competent, storylines (as I strongly believe in the necessity of a single, coherent plot structure and in the employment of originality to devise it. I am also somewhat taken aback by the fact that the series' creators would expect intelligent viewers to be sated by second-rate regurgitations of what they had already seen.)  

The Simpsons, overall, is a show that I enjoy and find funny. Seinfeld, on the other hand, strikes me as far more nihilistic, gratuitous, and banal. I ask you, Mr. Elliot, to look into the source for your response to the show, and what premises you hold that are divergent from mine, that bring this response about. It would be an interesting exercise and a means of further exploring this evident disagreement between our evaluations in greater depth than merely writing back and forth, "It's funny" or "It's not funny."

Mr. Elliot: James Bond is meant to be sensual, for Pete's sake! If you don't like Bond, that's fine, but don't make out that sensuality is a vice.

Mr. Stolyarov: Read "The Public-Private Ethical Distinction." You will find that I am not a foe of romance or even bodily exposure, but not in the mass media (I only deem it morally acceptable within a private, monogamous, preferrably married relationship).

I am
G. Stolyarov II

(Edited by G. Stolyarov II on 3/12, 9:22pm)


Post 44

Friday, March 12, 2004 - 9:34pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Barnes: Ayn Rand didn't think money could buy love either.

Mr. Stolyarov: True, when one refers purely to hard cash, but beside the point. The fact that the Beatles emfasized this topic implied the intent to furnish an ideological statement concerning money and the deficiencies of money. It is also true that "money (cash) can't buy me Jupiter" (at least at present, since property rights on Jupiter have not yet been ultimately defined or established). Yet I would not write a song or even an essay about this unless I intended to somehow show money to be inadequate or not all that it is cracked up to be. And an attempt to undermine the perceived value of money is representative of an anti-materialistic attitude.  

But can money buy love? Let me pose a question to anyone who cares to respond:

Let us presume that two persons of the relevant gender are intersted in you romantically. Both have gone through substantial efforts to bond with you spiritually, but have immense differences in their productve ethic. Person A is refined, educated, and diligent to the extent that he/she has been able to accumulate vast amounts of money at an early age and continues to dynamically strive for more. Person B, on the other hand, has stagnated in his/her financial condition and does not seek to rise from an average income level (and his/her creative potential is thereby diminished). On the same day, both of these individuals propose to you. Whom do you select to marry and why? Or would you require additional information to answer this question? 


Post 45

Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:28pmSanction this postReply
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"because of my premise that certain parts of the human form must not be given any public exposure or even the suggestion of such exposure, even if it is in a mere cartoon."

Stolyarov, if you take this premise to be accurate, you would cast out as decadent not only the contemporary entertainment you consider the fodder of anti-human nazi beasts, but also many historically esteemedclassics of of greco roman sculpture and renaissance painting, classics which have inspired numerous generations. do you wish to go that far in your puritan, almost christian, restriction of sexuality?

Post 46

Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:28pmSanction this postReply
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Citizen Rat writes:
>We have a popular culture that has irrationally dispensed with all >standards of excellence in favor of stimulating our base selves.  >This is nihilistic and corrosive of rational thought.  Little wonder >then that the culture of totalitarian states is also nihilistic.
>Again I ask, do you really disagree with any of this?

Citizen Rat,

Look, obviously I'm not getting through here. Let's run through Stolyarorv's logic play by play:

- Rock and roll and disco is nihilisitic
- Totalitarian states are nihilistic
- Therefore rock and roll and disco would be the natural music of totalitarian states!

BUT - IT - ISN'T!!! He rests his whole case on a *fictional* example. Whereas we have any number of totalitarian states to examine over the past 50 years since the creation of rock and roll and *none* of them have approved of these musical forms. In fact they've universally SUPPRESSED them!!!

CR, when you propose a theory, and then all the examples you find in reality flatly contradict this theory, *it means the theory is almost certainly false*. OK?

Here's reality: The popular music industry is fuelled worldwide by capitalism - by entrepreneurs and major music corporations, who have made fortunes out of these forms.

Are you really, really, truly going to deny this?

So the question becomes: how has *capitalism* produced such a nihilistic and violent culture so successfully? (Here's a starting point: it's cheap and easy to make and market)

So you can see that Stolyarov's theory has it bass-ackwards. And, given his hilarious misunderstanding of his own evidence, at least he is consistent!

- Daniel










Post 47

Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:35pmSanction this postReply
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>Mr. Barnes: Ayn Rand didn't think money could buy love either.

>Mr. Stolyarov: True, when one refers purely to hard cash, but beside the point. The fact that the Beatles emfasized this topic implied the intent to furnish an ideological statement concerning money and the deficiencies of money. It is also true that "money (cash) can't buy me Jupiter" (at least at present, since property rights on Jupiter have not yet been ultimately defined or established).

Priceless! Truly, the Ed Wood of cultural commentary!

- Daniel

Post 48

Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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RussK:

You: >>What is the most important thing about christianity: jesus christ.<<

No, it's not.

You: >>What did he do: He was sacrificed. I don't need to go further.<<

Well, yes, you do, unless you are satisfied with the Randian cartoon of religion in general and Christianity in particular.

You: >>If you think that christianity or the catholic church promotes rational self-interest and does not teach altruism, then you are intentionally blinding yourself to the subject.<<

I have a working knowledge of Objectivism and much superior knowledge of Roman Catholicism.  I know of what I speak and so corrected your error regarding altruism.  You can take my benevolence for what it's worth to you, which apparently does not seem to be much.  You don't know me, so that's understandable. 

You: >>*btw the "Golden Rule" is nothing but deontology, which is anathema to Objectivism.<<

Yes, I suppose you can stuff the Golden Rule into that pigeonhole, but it misses my point.  As universal as the human condition is, truths about human nature will still manifest themselves in different ways, and it is useful to recognize this phenomenon in bodies of thought other than our own.

For example, Catholicism's Golden Rule assumes that every individual desires a respect for his dignity, therefore the wisest path to that goal is to respect it in others.  This applies the Objectivist principles behind self-interest, benevolence, and initiation of force, even if Objectivism does not express such deontologically.

(As for Objectivism's distaste for deontology, permit me my doubts about this when it comes to withholding "sanction" of allegedly evil concepts.  This practice strikes me as an explicit imposition of moral obligation upon Objectivists.)

The bottom line, Russ, is that I'm not here to evangelize.  Where appropriate I have plainly stated my beliefs (morally Catholic, politically conservative), because there is no reason to be coy about such things.  Where appropriate I will point out errors about those beliefs, because I presume that one purpose of forums like this is to know more rather than less about the world around us.  But I have no interest in persuading you to believe as I do.  I have a very selfish purpose here, which is to understand how Objectivism has so far bollixed the worthy mission of defeating post-modernism on secular terms.

Regards,
Citizen Rat a.k.a. Bill


Post 49

Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 7:34amSanction this postReply
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Daniel:

Kudos on weaving an truly excellent strawman:
Look, obviously I'm not getting through here. Let's run through Stolyarorv's logic play by play:

- Rock and roll and disco is nihilisitic
- Totalitarian states are nihilistic
- Therefore rock and roll and disco would be the natural music of totalitarian states!

BUT - IT - ISN'T!!! He rests his whole case on a *fictional* example. Whereas we have any number of totalitarian states to examine over the past 50 years since the creation of rock and roll and *none* of them have approved of these musical forms. In fact they've universally SUPPRESSED them!!!

CR, when you propose a theory, and then all the examples you find in reality flatly contradict this theory, *it means the theory is almost certainly false*. OK?
You had me going for a moment until I realized that you and I read two different articles.  I am content in believing that I read the article that Stolyarov actually wrote.

Regards,
Citizen Rat a.k.a. Bill

P.S.  I am as stought a defender of the moral superiority of capitalism as an economic system as anyone, but I do not hesitate to recognize that it can produce the shlock, obscenity, and pornography that so many of us desire in the arts.


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Post 50

Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
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"shlock, obscenity, and pornography that so many of us desire in the arts."

if it is created because it suits a common human demand, whats wrong with such, rat? there are three options here:
1: nothing -- the postmodern approach

2: its wrong because god says so and we must yield our interests to his: the religious approach. AND, incidentally, an immediate case in point of christian mythos demanding sacrifice. should your interests conflict with god, its you who's got to go.

3: its ultimately self destructive: the randian approach. if this is the case, however, a causal mechanism must be established by which it is self destructive. Stolyarov's ethos on the restriction of sexuality does not count as valid, as, to take his principle seriously, one would reject classical goddess statues and their equivalent renaissance paintings, those white sculptures of immense sensual beauty, which I hope the rest of us do not consider as "pornography". so we are, in essence, left with two big questions: what sets a playboy centerfold and venus de milo apart?
and if the playboy centerfold is degenerate, what causes it to be such?

Post 51

Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
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CR writes:
>Kudos on weaving an truly excellent strawman:

So, Citizen Rat, *it's me* who's making the strawman argument? Funny - you don't say how!

After all - the article is entititled "The Orwellian Popular Culture of Modernity". He makes numerous comparisons with the culture of Orwell's fictional totalitarian society and American popular culture. But what's his point? Orwell's fictional culture is state-enforced: America's is not. And when we examine actual state-enforced cultures we find Orwell is wrong anyway!! They're not like that at all. Is he saying America is secretly totalitarian? Is he saying that actual totalitarian states, that discouraged these musical forms, *weren't*?All Stolyarov has is a vague comparison - he makes no meaningful connection.

OK. Imagine Stolyarov has just read a delightful fairy story about the Man In The Moon. Then, lying in bed that night, he looks out his window and - behold! there he sees a *face* in the moon, looking right at him! Stolyarov leaps out of bed and immediately writes a lengthy treatise for SoloHQ about his amazing discovery that there really is a Man In The Moon.

I write in saying that in fact the fairy story is untrue: people have been to the moon several times, and there is no-one there, and that it is really very foolish of Stolyarov not to know this.

Then you write in, saying that yes, Stolyarov may have made a few trivial factual errors regarding the Man In The Moon. But he's still basically right! How can I deny it? Look - there's his eyes, there's his nose, there's his mouth...

- Daniel





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Post 52

Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 6:30amSanction this postReply
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Daniel:

You wrote:
After all - the article is entititled "The Orwellian Popular Culture of Modernity". He makes numerous comparisons with the culture of Orwell's fictional totalitarian society and American popular culture. But what's his point? Orwell's fictional culture is state-enforced: America's is not.
What Stolyarov did was point out the nihilistic quality of Oceanian culture in Orwell's "1984", which all of us recognize as dystopian, and then alert us to those same qualities in our present popular culture, which we do not uniformly view as dystopian.  He provided us with a cautionary tale that it does NOT take Big Brother to destroy our culture; we can do it ourselves once we fall away from demanding excellence in our arts and instead wallow in base sentiment and vulgarity.

While Stolyarov did not hit a home run regarding the Beatles as the starting point for this decadence, he did not strike out either.  Besides that factual issue hardly makes or breaks his case.  He correctly describes, for example, a downward arc in the quality of popular music that culminates in the utter nihilism of today's rap.  Although I do not necessarily agree with Stolyarov as to the degree each of his examples of pop culture mark this descent (as I have already noted regarding the Beatles), his tale of caution remains insightful and valid.

Regards,
Citizen Rat a.k.a. Bill


Post 53

Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 6:59amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Bisno:

You ask two "big" questions:
what sets a playboy centerfold and venus de milo apart?
and if the playboy centerfold is degenerate, what causes it to be such?
One answer will suffice.  Pornography by definition is that which has no purpose other than to cause sexual excitement.  It elicits arousal of a base urge for no reason other than the arousal.  Hence, it appeals to the animal in us rather than the human.

Does that make pornography the most godawful thing in the world?  No, but it does detach our sexuality from any higher purpose that can bring us genuine happiness.  Routine indulgence of pornography may produce repeated sensation of physical pleasure, but then so does drug addiction.  And it would be absurd to argue that pornography offers us anything to sate our reason; indeed, like drug addiction it may very well help to destroy it.

I'll grant you that the mindlessly vulgar may very well treat the Venus de Milo as pornography.  I cannot account for another's failure to engage his reason in the appreciation of a work of art.  However, we all know the girl in the Playboy centerfold is naked for only one reason -- and it ain't art.  (After all, when was the last time you remarked upon how well the photographer used light to paint his subject.)  By all means, look at the pictures and stimulate your lust.  Just don't let it make you forget that a real girl will make you a whole lot happier.

Regards,
Citizen Rat a.k.a. Bill


Post 54

Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 3:35pmSanction this postReply
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Rat:

"You ask two "big" questions:......"

"By all means, look at the pictures and stimulate your lust.  Just don't let it make you forget that a real girl will make you a whole lot happier."

I have a girlfriend, thank you very much. And does this smug, condesending attitude that you exhibit towards any and all critique make you feel better about your dogmas, or do you simply enjoy putting people down for the sake of it? I'm sure Mr. Barnes may also vouch for this proclivity within your words.

"And it would be absurd to argue that pornography offers us anything to sate our reason; indeed, like drug addiction it may very well help to destroy it."

You mean, like faith? and besides, this comparison is wholly unfounded. Drugs are, (at least the harder ones) toxic chemicals which directly alter the physical functioning of brain cells. In pornography, the only chemicals released are ones which naturally occur within the brain and which the brain is naturally able to handle just fine. Unless you wish to contend that dopamine is neurotoxic now.

"No, but it does detach our sexuality from any higher purpose that can bring us genuine happiness."

Higher purpose? And what such higher purpose would you cite? and why is sexuality enjoyed as an end in itself, not genuine happiness? The only 'higher purpose' is one's own long term self interest. "Vulgar, base sexuality" does not harm one if calculated rationally, but does cause pleasure in context, and thus I see no reason to consider it vulgar or base. The idea that sexuality is base or vulgar is a platonic/christian superstition based on the mind body dichtomy, with a "pure" soul and "impure" flesh. As I dont buy into the religious framework, this dichtomy strikes me as wholly unfounded.

Post 55

Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 6:37pmSanction this postReply
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Once again, I will try to "catch up" with the commentary on this board.

Mr. Humphreys writes, in regard to Mr. Bond's promiscuity: "I don't personally think that that type of sex life should be a problem for Objectivists."

Oh, how I object!

This is an excerpt from http://solohq.com/Articles/Stolyarov/The_Public-Private_Ethical_Distinction.shtml:

"The nature of romantic love as a strictly private undertaking can be derived from its exclusivity; this relationship is both the most proximate possible between two individuals, and a function possessing entirely its own psychological "plane," which is not shared by any other emotions, attractions, or interests. To grant such a consideration to two or more people (as in the case of adultery or polygamy) would be to dilute its effect on each and thus turn a profound appreciation into flimsy, superficial promiscuity. Any such love that is "shared" is thereby corrupted, not amplified (in absolute refutation to the collectivists' seemingly contradictory, but in fact perfectly consistent proclamations of "free love" and "socially planned breeding")."

Mr. Bachler: Your condemnation of Bond Films for their sexual promiscuity is quite funny. Ayn Rand loved the first Bond film "Dr. No" and maybe others too.  But "Dr. No" definitely contains the type of promiscuity and perversions of good taste you seem to hate.

Mr. Stolyarov: I have indeed read Rand's review of the film, and will state that, however greatly I admire her judgment, I cannot accept it unquestionably on all issues. Matters of sexuality are among the subjects where we diverge. Utilizing fundamental Objectivist premises, I have reached the conclusion that the only manner in which fysical intercourse can be "noble" is if it indeed relates to the highest object of one's valuation, i.e. in an exclusive, married, monogamous relationship, and if not a trace of this conduct leaks into public view. Rand's attitude toward this subject was far too lax, in my estimation, which led her to some unfortunate actions, including an affair with Nathaniel Branden which ended up destroying a most productive intellectual and business partnership.

If you would like to glimpse upon a viewpoint more compatible with my thoughts on such displays, you have but to examine the general paradigm of the Victorian era, when some of the loftiest esthetics were orginated, without almost any reference to promiscuity and lust in public.

It seems fitting at his point to address a claim made more recently by Mr. Bisno.

Mr. Bisno: Drugs are, (at least the harder ones) toxic chemicals which directly alter the physical functioning of brain cells. In pornography, the only chemicals released are ones which naturally occur within the brain and which the brain is naturally able to handle just fine. Unless you wish to contend that dopamine is neurotoxic now... Higher purpose? And what such higher purpose would you cite? and why is sexuality enjoyed as an end in itself, not genuine happiness? The only 'higher purpose' is one's own long term self interest. "Vulgar, base sexuality" does not harm one if calculated rationally, but does cause pleasure in context, and thus I see no reason to consider it vulgar or base. The idea that sexuality is base or vulgar is a platonic/christian superstition based on the mind body dichtomy, with a "pure" soul and "impure" flesh. As I dont buy into the religious framework, this dichtomy strikes me as wholly unfounded.

Mr. Stolyarov: I begin my response with another passage from "The Public-Private Ethical Distinction"

"Of course, intimate gossip is not the main culprit in the violation of this principle of proper etiquette. That role, in the past forty years, has been played by the mass media, in its wanton expositions of bedroom scenes and scantiness of clothing obviously not meant for the public consumption. As a result, note that not a hint of romance is present in these portrayals, not a suggestion that two individuals are demonstrating the highest possible valuation toward one another, not a speck of the intellectual and far more delicate facet of love. Instead, what is seen is crude lust, as for a chunk of meat, with all the corresponding (and ever-escalating in magnitude) rapist-butcher attitudes pervading modern popular culture. Along with the imagery, which is steadily becoming pornographic even on "mainstream" television (which I proudly do not watch; previews and commercials have been sufficient to avert me), there has seeped from the ghettos a whole army of profane expressions, note, almost all of them jargon referring to intimate details which should have been consigned to the realm of private romantic love. (The other "swear words" are expressions either of bodily or cognitive malfunctions, or of routine hygienic functions that are no one's business.) This is the brazen, crusadingly nihilistic consequence of a society incapable of respecting the private realm."

The fact is, pornografy and its derivatives are detrimental to self-interest, in that they divert the highest form of admiration possible for a human being into a few obscene and personally detached images. If we grant that polygamy, the "sharing" of love with a third party person utterly destroys the significance of love, what about the "sharing" of love with a mere image, something even less animate, rational, or beneficial to the self?

As for the release of dopamine, there have been studies (which I have read over the years from a variety of sources) that demonstrated that excessive "stimulation" of this sort is in fact detrimental to longevity and can pose long-term health problems. Among the effects I can recall are shortages of dopamine and serotonin in the brain, the excess production of hormones and their circulation through the blood in poisonous quantities, the loss of energy and its diversion from one's work, swifter aging, "pornografy addiction" and desensitization, wherein thousands of patients have shown, systematically, to have degenerated to further stages of depravity, beginning to observe violent pornografy or even to engage in rape. Other studies have shown that abstinence from fysical intercourse, in men of all sorts, from Nikola Tesla and Immanuel Kant to sterile patients in mental hospitals, can raise life expectancy by some 10-15 years.

I have even at one time written a yet unpublished paper on "Sexual Imagery in the Media" and its harmful fysiological effects. Commentary such as yours renders me prone to releasing it into the public domain. If you have any question about my sources for this information, I shall sate your curiosity upon the paper's publication.  

Are pornografy or "light pornografy" indicative of one's pursuit of happiness or self-interest? From all areas of analysis, fysical and spiritual, the answer is a resounding no.
 
I am
G. Stolyarov II



Post 56

Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 6:50pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Bisno: Stolyarov, if you take this premise to be accurate, you would cast out as decadent not only the contemporary entertainment you consider the fodder of anti-human nazi beasts, but also many historically esteemed classics of of greco roman sculpture and renaissance painting, classics which have inspired numerous generations. do you wish to go that far in your puritan, almost christian, restriction of sexuality?

Mr. Stolyarov: Now, I never stated that the human form should not be displayed in art; I only condemned the showing of certain body parts, i.e. the ones rightfully referred to as the private parts. Skillful as Michelangelo's work was, it would have been far more admirable, from the viewpoints of both mathematics and propriety, if he had endowed the David with a loincloth. The purpose of classical art in revealing the human form is to demonstrate certain aspects essential to the depiction, i.e. muscle tension, strength, purpose, symmetry, mathematical elegance, none of which are present in the "private parts."

One can argue against the public ostracism of works like Michelangelo's on the basis that their rational, constructive, intellectually stimulating attributes by far outweigh the mistake the artist made in thinking of exposure of the human form in "all or nothing" terms. However, one cannot present even a remotely similar claim with regard to the esthetically worthless displays occurring in the modern culture, and even the particular images of generally good shows, such as The Simpsons.

Now, you may ask, is it possible to show the beauty of the whole human form in a publicly appropriate manner? I answer with a resounding yes. Just look at the cover of Atlas Shrugged. That is as much as my *ahem* Puritanism will allow.

I am
G. Stolyarov II 


Post 57

Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 7:37pmSanction this postReply
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Citizen Rat:
>What Stolyarov did was point out the nihilistic quality of Oceanian culture in Orwell's "1984", which all of us recognize as dystopian, and then alert us to those same qualities in our present popular culture, which we do not uniformly view as dystopian.  He provided us with a cautionary tale that it does NOT take Big Brother to destroy our culture; we can do it ourselves once we fall away from demanding excellence in our arts and instead wallow in base sentiment and vulgarity.

Well, I'm glad you've found Stolyarov's point for him! But then I suppose if you give him a big enough barn door, he will eventually hit it. But it still misses the connection. In "1984" the purpose is *political*: people are being manipulated towards the ends of the State by a State-enforced culture. In America this is not the case: the popular culture is a *commercial* one. Hollywood is not owned by the government. There are no "Party bureacrats" keeping their production quotas high by distracting the proletariat with Britney Spears. So his comparison is just dumb. In fact, it sounds to me like a mere rerun of The Frankfurt School argument about popular culture that he claims to be so au fait with.

As far as the issue of facts go, believe me Stolyarov's astonishing lack of understanding doesn't stop with the Beatles and James Bond. For instance, Britney Spears is not by any stretch of the imagination a *hip-hop* artist! Male rap artists do not have "high-pitched" voices, nor females particularly low ones - this claim is not just wrong, it is bizarre! Stolyarov does not know what a synthesiser is or what it does (Doh! it synthesises *sounds* - not music!) And so on and on. His hilariously pseudo-intellectual prose conceals -as it so often does - an ignoramus. It can only be the case, therefore, that any grain of truth he may uncover will be more down to luck than good management.

- Daniel






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Post 58

Monday, March 15, 2004 - 5:34amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Bisno:

In a very confused passage you wrote:
Higher purpose? And what such higher purpose would you cite? and why is sexuality enjoyed as an end in itself, not genuine happiness? The only 'higher purpose' is one's own long term self interest. "Vulgar, base sexuality" does not harm one if calculated rationally, but does cause pleasure in context, and thus I see no reason to consider it vulgar or base. The idea that sexuality is base or vulgar is a platonic/christian superstition based on the mind body dichtomy, with a "pure" soul and "impure" flesh. As I dont buy into the religious framework, this dichtomy strikes me as wholly unfounded.
I have neither the time nor the desire to introduce you to Catholic teaching on human sexuality.  Suffice it to say, you are wallowing in the ignorance typical of a bigot.  And please do not protest the label of bigot.  My statements about pornography and Stolyarov's article in general had nothing to do with religion.  If it weren't the fact that I had happened to mention that I was Catholic, you would not have dragged your prejudices regarding religion into this matter.

When you can respond RATIONALLY to me, I'll be happy to carry on the conversation.

Regards,
Citizen Rat a.k.a. Bill


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Post 59

Monday, March 15, 2004 - 5:43amSanction this postReply
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Daniel:

You wrote:
Well, I'm glad you've found Stolyarov's point for him! But then I suppose if you give him a big enough barn door, he will eventually hit it. But it still misses the connection. In "1984" the purpose is *political*: people are being manipulated towards the ends of the State by a State-enforced culture. In America this is not the case: the popular culture is a *commercial* one. Hollywood is not owned by the government. There are no "Party bureacrats" keeping their production quotas high by distracting the proletariat with Britney Spears. So his comparison is just dumb.
I agree we don't have the state to blame for the sorry state of our popular culture -- only ourselves.

Regards,
Citizen Rat a.ka. Bill


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