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Post 20

Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I was simply listing the quotes.  I assume most people here have OPAR and can check the full context.

As far as your quote concerning Creationism goes, I think it's only fair to point out that most Creationists (and other non-evolutionists) believe that the evidence is against Darwinian evolution.  That is, they consider their views to be more "scientific" than evolutionists.  I take no position on the creation versus evolution debate, but it's a bit extreme to say that all Creationists are attempting to enshrine their whims as the ultimate standard.  (I'm not saying that this is your view.)


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Post 21

Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
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Ayn Rand wrote:
>Man could not survive even as an herbivorous creature by picking fruit and berries at random. He has no instinct to tell him which plants are beneficial to him and which are a deadly poison.

Um, amazingly, neither men nor animals (herbivorous or otherwise) pick food "at random". They seem to use a mixture of 1)evolutionary selection favouring certain food types 2) learning by imitating other animals in their group 3) learning by individual trial and error. But obviously there is no "infallible" instinct: animals often eat deadly poison too.

Actually, it's even pretty hard to tell instinct from conscious learning. It was widely believed, for example, that baby apes were "instinctively" afraid of snakes. More careful experimentation showed, however, that they actually *learn* this from others in their group.

When she talks about "man" here she seems to imagine a typical Western man suddenly alone and naked in a jungle. But *any* domestically reared animal has a low chance of survival in the wild. She's forgotten that man has always lived in groups, like other animals, and like them, 1) conditions and is conditioned by his environment and 2) much if not most of his knowledge is learned by imitation and inheritance.

She also wrote:
>Instinct is infallible within the limits of its sphere.

This use of the word "infallible" here is rather like her dodgy use of the phrase "absolutely precise" in the IOE, when she really should have said "approximate." (this was discussed on another thread). It's more rhetorical than anything else - she doesn't like the idea that man can come with any evolutionary pre-programming, as it buggers up her "tabula rasa" hypothesis. Similarly, the vital human (and animal) trait of learning through imitation is collectivist!

So she tries to drive a supersized verbal wedge between man and animals - they are purely "instinctive" and he is purely not. But, of course, this then puts her in the awkward position of having to explain the emergence of rational man in *non* evolutionary - but also non-creationist - terms! Doh! This very likely explains her fence-sitting on the evolution issue, but it is surely not a secure place to be.

Really, her above sentence amounts to little more than: "Instinct is infallible, except when it isn't." Other than a certain surface impression, it's not really saying anything at all.

- Daniel





Post 22

Monday, July 12, 2004 - 8:09amSanction this postReply
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Regi: I had one too, but the wheels fell off.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 7/12, 8:11am)


Post 23

Monday, July 12, 2004 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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It doesn't surprise me that Rand had a limited problem with the idea of evolution... She never liked the idea of seemingly non-logical randomness, which drives evolution.

She would have had little tolerance for the idea that improvements could be made through a process whereby infrequent random aberrations ruled the roost, and slowly produced superior innovations, that logical systems could be layed down this way, without a logical mind to guide them... even despite the fact that the logical mind itself might have been a structural design by-product of a random evolution.

But I check this in my mind, and let bygones by bygones, because then, in an instant, I am once again aware of all the monumentally important contributions she made to the human race, and how they vastly eclipse even these fundamental misconceptions.

(Edited by Orion Reasoner on 7/12, 7:08pm)


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Post 24

Monday, July 12, 2004 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney: you said, "Regi: I had one too, but the wheels fell off."

Sorry to hear it! Really! Since I have no idea what you are talking about.

Regi



Post 25

Thursday, September 2, 2004 - 3:28pmSanction this postReply
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Regi--

"She admitted she did not know exactly how consciousness and mind were related to the physical, on which they are dependent, but thought the answer to the problem was the business of science, not philosophy."

This syntax concerns me because it sounds like a concession to the mind-body dichotomy.  Consciousness and mind are not things like stomachs and kidneys.  They are metaphors for a constellation of actions.  We don't wonder what the relationship is between running and a person.  We simply say a person runs.

Persons perform actions we can call minding.  How do they do it?  Ultimately, we have to say that they just do.

Sheldon



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Post 26

Friday, September 3, 2004 - 4:13amSanction this postReply
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Sheldon,

Consciousness and mind are not things like stomachs and kidneys. 

Consciousness and mind are not physical things, but the physical is that which consciousness is conscious of. To deny that consciousness is something is an attempt to make that which consciousness is conscious of and consciousness itself the same thing.

The human mind is a special case of consciousness, i.e. volitional consciousness. Both consciousness, and that unique human kind of consciousness, called the mind, are real existents, distinct and separate from any physical existence they are conscious of or have knowledge of.

They are not physical, but they are "material." By material I mean, they exist independently of anyone's consciousness or knowledge of them, and they are not "supernatural" (do not existent independently of the physical), but are not themselves physical.

Consciousness and mind are aspects of life, which is itself not, "physical." Life is a self-sustained process of the physical, but, as a process, is not itself physical. The process could not exist without the physical, but every physical aspect of a living organism is, in itself, not living. No arrangement of physical entities (existents) is "alive" unless that self-sustained process, "life," is present. It is the life process that distinguishes an "organism" from a non-living entity. The moment the life process ceases in an organism, even though not one physical characteristic of the physical constituents of the organism changes, the entity ceases to be an organism.

Regi 


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Post 27

Friday, September 3, 2004 - 7:16amSanction this postReply
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Since animals don't speak English and humans don't speak the animal languages, we'd never know exactly how animal's consciousness and mind are different/similar from ours .

But physically, human genome sequences are very similar to those of apes and mouse. The proteins, nucleotides (DNAs, RNAs), etc., material that make our body (and brain) are ~99% similar to that of apes, and >80% similar to that of mouse. I wonder what would Rand think of evolution had she lived today.


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Post 28

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 10:18amSanction this postReply
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Neil,

I wanted to comment on one particular statement from your article, which I think may be misleading. In discussing Rand's journal entries, you write:

She goes on the same entry to describe those incapable of rational life as “sub-human” who need to be “enslaved” and “controlled.” (p. 467.)
It sounded so unlike Rand for her to speak of anyone needing to be "enslaved" or "controlled," that I was immediately intrigued and checked the full statement from Journals of Ayn Rand. Rand wrote:

If it's asked: what about those who are still pre-human, or near enough to it, and incapable of rationality as a method to guide their lives? What if such do exist among us? The answer is: nothing. Their way of living is not ours [...] Leave us to our way of living, man's way -- freedom, individual independence -- and we'll carry them along by providing an example and a world of safety and comfort such as they can never quite grasp, let alone achieve.

We do this -- but even if we didn't, so what? If those creatures incapable of rational existence are sub-human, are we to sacrifice ourselves or be sacrificed to them? [...] If these pre-humans are incapable of rational thinking and of independence, and therefore they need an enslaved, controlled, regimented, "protective" society in order to survive --we cannot survive in such a society.
(Journals of Ayn Rand, p. 467. My omissions are indicated with bracketed ellipses, all other punctuation and emphasis is from the original.)

What I take from this passage is that Rand was positing arguments that someone else might make, to the effect that we must have an "enslaved, controlled" society in order to protect those who are not rational enough to live in a free society -- which to Rand clearly meant that the rational, productive people would be enslaved so that value could be transferred from them to the irrational and unproductive. If that is the type of society those "pre-human"/"sub-human" people need, then Rand essentially responds: too bad for them, we (Rand is presumably speaking for, or at least including herself among, the rational, productive people) need freedom, and it is our right to live in freedom regardless of what happens to them. So, far from describing the "sub-human" as needing to be enslaved and controlled, she is saying that we should not have a society of enslavement and control even if that is what some people think they need.

None of this has any great bearing on the question of whether evolution is true or what Rand thought of it, but the notion of Rand wanting to see "sub-human" people "enslaved" was so foreign to Rand's philosophy -- and so much like the common criticism of her as a "fascist" -- that I thought it deserved some clarification.

--
Richard Lawrence


Post 29

Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 1:29amSanction this postReply
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But physically, human genome sequences are very similar to those of apes and mouse. The proteins, nucleotides (DNAs, RNAs), etc., material that make our body (and brain) are ~99% similar to that of apes, and >80% similar to that of mouse. I wonder what would Rand think of evolution had she lived today.

_____________________________________________________

Actually, the “mere 1% difference” between human and chimp sequencing is a myth. A recent article in Science magazine makes the following points about this:

The 1% figure “reflects only base substitutions, not the many stretches of DNA that have been inserted or deleted in the genomes." In other words, when the chimp genome has no similar stretch of human DNA, such DNA sequences are ignored by those touting the statistic that humans and chimps are only 1% genetically different.

This is called the “procrustean bed” approach to research. Procrustes was an ogre in Greek mythology who would torture his victims by putting them on his bed: if the victim was too short compared to the bed, Procrustes would stretch the victim until he “fit” the bed. If the victim was too long for the bed, Procrustes would chop off just enough leg until the victim again “fit” the bed. In every case, the victim would be made to “fit” the bed.

Just like Darwinism. In all cases, the evidence will be made to “fit” the theory; in this case, by simply omitting the evidence against it (in other cases, evidence is stretched or invented to "fit" the theory).

The article in Science also makes this point:

"Researchers are finding that on top of the 1% distinction, chunks of missing DNA, extra genes, altered connections in gene networks, and the very structure of chromosomes confound any quantification of 'humanness' versus 'chimpness.'"

One question Rand might have asked is this: Even if there were only a 1% difference in genomic makeup between man and chimp, why would that necessarily point to common descent? She might also ask this: At what point does the comparison cease to support Darwinian evolution? What about 2% different? 3%? 5%? 10%? Is there an objective metric for falsification here?

Or is the metric Procrustean: 1%, 2%, 5%, or 10%, it shall all point to common descent, for Darwinism is the “bed” to which all data must be made to fit.

See: Jon Cohen, "Relative Differences: The Myth of 1%," Science, Vol. 316:1836 (June 29, 2007).

Rand remained agnostic regarding Darwinism probably for the following reasons:

1) Objectivism is not a speculative philosophy, but a practical one. Questions of ultimate origins – whether of matter, life, language, or mind – are futile.

2) Rand had a very good BS detector just below her eyes and just above her upper lip. She no doubt suspected that a scientific theory whose main explanatory mechanism (i.e., natural selection) resolved itself into an empty tautology – “We know that things survive because they have a quality called fitness / We know that things have a quality called fitness because they survive” – can’t be all that impressive or important. She may also have figured (correctly) that a theory trying to explain the high degree of integration and order amongst living organisms by reference to a silly dance called “The Stochastic Shuffle”, has got to be nonsense – especially when no observations, in the laboratory or in the field, confirm it.

Rand always stressed observation in science. Since neither she nor anyone else has ever actually observed any species evolving – and since the fossil record shows mainly stasis, punctuated by the rapid appearance of new species with no ancestors – she rightly stood her ground regarding the entire theory by claiming that she had no opinion about it.

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Post 30

Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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The rapid mutation of viruses and bacteria in the face of antibiotics is mutation and adaptation in real time. You can see selection at work right under a microscope.

The science of genetics and molecular biology is the most solid of the biological sciences and it completely grounds the theory of evolution. It provides the mechanism.

Evolution is a fact and genetic biology very strongly supports Darwin's hypothesis of natural selection. Which is no more a tautology than a potato sorter. Some organisms are not well suited for their environment and they die before they can reproduce or reproduce in small numbers. The better suited organisms reproduce more successful. There is you biological potato sorter in action. Purely physical, purely natural. No miracles, no Perfection, no Purpose; just interactions of proteins and enzymes with their physical surroundings.

Bob Kolker


Post 31

Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 9:26amSanction this postReply
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There is no value in feeding trolls. In other words, Claude Shannon thinks evolution is incorrect despite overwhelming evidence, and comes here to provoke argument. What will be accomplished by the argument?

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Post 32

Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 10:06amSanction this postReply
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the error is presuming evolution is a biological imperative - instead of recognising it is a universal, an aspect of the dynamics of identity, inherent in the nature of existing......  it pertains to everything within the universe...
(Edited by robert malcom on 12/26, 10:07am)


Post 33

Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 10:20amSanction this postReply
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Evolution of biological organisms is the result of differential success in reproduction due to bodily function determined by the genes of an organism. Some kinds of organisms are better able to nourish themselves then others and thus are more likely to reach the reproductive stage of their lives. This is how Darwin accounted for the different kinds of finches he found in the Galapagos Islands. The vegetation on the islands differed from each other and over the course of time variations of the original finches appeared each able to adapt better to the conditions on the island on which they lived.

In islands where the plants had bigger seeds, birds with larger beaks able to break them more efficiently were more likely to survive until they reproduced and they passed on that variation to their offspring. And so on. It is the biological potato sorter* in action.

Bob Kolker

* a mechanical device which separates potatoes by size. It is also used for sorting coins in the coin to cash conversion machines oft seen in supermarkets.


Post 34

Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 9:01pmSanction this postReply
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Point 1: The gain in resistance is nicely balanced by losses to the bacterium elsewhere -- slower metabolism, for one thing (known as a "fitness cost"). Just as in economics: there's no such thing as a free lunch. You gain something here; you lose something there. See this link:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1365-2958.2002.03173.x
“Most chromosomal mutations that cause antibiotic resistance impose fitness costs on the bacteria . . .The resulting amino acid substitution (K42N) in ribosomal protein S12 causes an increased rate of ribosomal proofreading and, as a result, the rate of protein synthesis, bacterial growth and virulence are decreased.”

Point 2: in the continued absence of the antibiotic, the organism sometimes reverts back to its "pre-selected" state. In these cases, there's no net evolutionary gain. However, even in cases where the resistant bacterium persists in the absence of the antibiotic, there is still the "fitness cost" mentioned above to consider.

Darwin’s finches on the Galapagos Islands reverted back to their original “pre-selected” state. During the drought, finches with larger beaks – already existing as a minority in the population – predominated and became the majority. When the drought ended, finches with smaller beaks – the original pre-selected state – predominated and became the majority. Interesting, but hardly worth getting excited about as an example of speciation. Nothing new was created. The two varieties of finches -- big-beaked and small-beaked -- already co-existed in the population. The environment, or "natural selection", did nothing but change the proportions of these two varieties in the population relative to each other.

Genetics and molecular biology show that DNA has quaternary digital code along its spine. No material force – nothing that reduces to chemistry or physics – determines the order of bases. An “A” on one rung in no way prompts, let alone determines, an A, C, T, or G, above it – there’s no physical bond or connection. Yet the sequence is functionally meaningful to the ribosome, which uses the sequence of bases (via RNA) to make specific amino acids that are then assembled in linear fashion into proteins. Everything is specific – like text or computer code – and it is completely undetermined.

However, the fact that DNA base sequences are undetermined does not mean that they are random. The fact that the letters I am typing now are undetermined does not mean that they are random. “Undetermined”, here, means “does not need to sort through all the possible combinations to find one that is functional.”

Natural selection is in more trouble today than ever. Its empty tautological structure is now naked and apparent to anyone who cares to look at it and admit it. Philosopher Jerry Fodor has said

“In fact, an appreciable number of perfectly reasonable biologists are coming to think that the theory of natural selection can no longer be taken for granted….The ironic upshot is that at a time when the theory of natural selection has become an article of pop culture, it is faced with what may be the most serious challenge it has had so far.”

See London Review of Books article at:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n20/fodo01_.html

Fodor believes in evolution; he simply dismisses the idea that natural selection and adaptation had anything to do with it.

If chance governs evolution, then we can calculate the chances of a biological structure coming into existence. For example, here are the odds of a protein forming by chance:

A medium-length protein is composed of about 300 amino acids. The order of the amino acids is very specific; the protein can tolerate some variance in the order of acids but not a lot.

Since there are 20 amino acids necessary for life, the odds of the first correct amino acid appearing randomly and then getting selected are 1-in-20. The odds of the second correct amino acid appearing randomly and getting selected are also 1-in-20. The odds of those first two amino acids appearing randomly and getting selected – either one at a time, or simultaneously (it makes no difference) are 1/20 x 1/20 = 1/400. Since there are 300 amino acids that have to appear randomly and be “selected,” and since the choice of the first amino acid in no way determines the choice of the next amino acid, the total odds are 1/20^300, or 1 chance in 10^390.

It gets worse.

Between each amino acid there must be a peptide bond. Peptide bonds don’t have to form; there are other kinds of bonds that could form. In a protein 300 amino acids in length, the odds of forming peptide bonds between each amino acid are 1 in 2^299 = 1 chance in 10^90. Add this to the previous odds, and the total odds are 10^480.

It gets worse.

Each amino acid has two forms called “enantiomers” or “optical isomers”. Enantiomers are chemically identical, but mirror images of each other: one is a “left-hand” version of the molecule; the other is a “right-hand” version of it. The left-hand version – “laevo” – is the only kinds that living organisms use in building proteins. The right-hand version – “dextro” – is not used in protein synthesis. The total odds of forming a correct “L-amino acid” for each of the 300 amino acids on the protein chain are 1 in 2^300, or 1 in 10^90

The total odds for (i) 300 correct amino acids in the correct order; (ii) 299 correct peptide bonds; and (iii) 300 L-form of each amino acid, are:

1 chance in 10^(390+90+90) = 1 chance in 10^570.

According to the Big Bang theory, the universe is about 12 billion years old. This is about 10^17 seconds. You’ve got 10^17 seconds to sort through 10^570 possible combinations and find the correct one.

Look at the exponents – “17” vs “570” – and you’ll see that randomness couldn’t have had anything to do with the creation of proteins. The numbers prove that. As a matter of fact, in this particular example, it’s not just astronomically unlikely, but physically impossible: the required speed of the reactions necessary to cram in 10^570 combinations in a mere 10^17 seconds exceeds physical constraints. Lazy evolutionists are fond of reciting the mantra, "Sure it's unlikely; but, hey, we've got billions and billions of years! Anything can happen in billions and billions years!"

No it can't. "Billions and billions of years" are about 10^17 seconds, and that's not long enough to search randomly through large numbers of permutations.

We can add this as reason #3 for why Miss Rand remained agnostic toward Darwinian evolution: She didn’t believe in the kinds of mathematical miracles that are required by the theory (let alone often blithely assumed by it).

[PS: "Differential reproduction" is a long-winded term that means "Species A makes more babies than Species B", so it's just a fancy way of resorting to the same circular argument: "Species A is defined as fit because it leaves more offspring than Species B; the cause of Species A leaving more offspring than Species B is that it was fit. We'll give that fact a name: we'll call it 'differential reproduction'." Darwinists attach a number to it, called the "Selective Value" or "SV" which is stated as a percentage, and refers to the fraction by which the population of Species A exceeds that of the population norm. For example, a mutant whose average number of surviving offspring is 0.1% higher than the rest of the population has an SV of 0.1%, or 0.001. In plain English, it still means "Species A leaves more offspring than Species B." That's not a CAUSE of anything. It's a retroactive description of something that has already happened whose cause is still unknown. Big deal.]

Post 35

Friday, December 28, 2007 - 6:19amSanction this postReply
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What are the alternate explanations of various species, if not some form of evolution?  Magic?

Post 36

Friday, December 28, 2007 - 7:35amSanction this postReply
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The first step to generating alternative hypotheses is to admit that the first hypothesis (Darwinism) has failed to fit the facts. Then begin anew with a humble but intellectually honest "We just don't have a clue."

Post 37

Friday, December 28, 2007 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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And an instant candidate for the Darwin Awards.....;-)

Post 38

Saturday, December 29, 2007 - 6:30amSanction this postReply
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The theory of evolution in its latest manifestation as molecular and genetic biology is right on the mark. As biological theories go* it is predictive and it has yet to be falsified. Genetics works.

Every alternative to descent with modification (that is what Darwin called it) so far formulated has been falsified. Lamarck's theory is falsified. The creationist theory is not even wrong. Intelligent design is not a scientific theory (it cannot be empirically falsified). What is left? If you have something to replace the Darwinian-Genetics synthesis, pray let us hear it. The world awaits.

Bob Kolker

*by their nature biological theories can never be as "pure" as the fundamental theories in physics. To do genetics you not only have to know the physical state of an organism, you also have know its history. Biological theories encompass contingencies in a way that physics does not.

Post 39

Saturday, December 29, 2007 - 2:03pmSanction this postReply
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The theory of evolution in its latest manifestation as molecular and genetic biology is right on the mark.

I’m sure it is. It doesn’t fit the fossil evidence, it can’t make predictions (since it always claims that “there are too many variables one has to know and they all happened a long time ago and we can never know what they were”) and it can’t make retrodictions. The most it can do – the most it has done – is to provide explanations retroactively. This is no different from the approach of Creationism (except advocates of the latter don’t claim they are making scientific statements). The trick in science is to draw out conclusions based on the model and then compare those conclusions empirically to real-world data.

As biological theories go* it is predictive and it has yet to be falsified.

What has Darwinian evolution predicted?

As for falsification, I would assume that lack of evidence in the fossil record, combined with evidence in the fossil record that downright contradicts Darwinian expectations, combined with the many embarrassing examples of forgery – Haeckel's drawings of comparative embryos are now known to have been faked, as well as the evidence in favor of industrial melanism and the peppered moth – combined with the many instances of back-peddling by the Darwinist establishment on putative transitional forms (the series of horses at the NY Museum of Natural History are now admitted to be independently existing species, not transitional species leading up gloriously to the modern horse; ditto for the giraffe; ditto hominids; similar debate going on now regarding the whale).

There are no grand tree-trunks of missing links with the existing forms being the branches. When the taxa are studied more closely, one result always occurs: the tree trunk disappears and the branches are brought together into a “bush” formation; meaning that the twigs of the bush – rather than branches from a trunk – are independently existing species, each unique. The fact that many show similarity to others apparently does not mean they are ancestors, or share a common descent.

Genetics was only recently brought into the study of evolution – around 1940, in fact. Fruit fly experiments have never once created a new species. They start out with fruit flies; they end up with fruit flies. The most they’ve come up with are fruit flies with legs growing out of their heads, or fruit flies with eyes growing out of their wings. These flies turn out to be sterile. So it’s all an evolutionary dead end. So much for genetics proving anything about evolution. Additionally, the “molecular clock” theory in molecular biology has now been seriously questioned, since for some time now much of it has disagreed with the fossil record. The major assumption being questioned – known as the “Molecular Assumption” and first stated by Linus Pauling – is that similarity of molecular sequence indicates evolutionary relatedness. This assumption will soon move from being merely questioned to being expunged entirely.

Every alternative to descent with modification (that is what Darwin called it) so far formulated has been falsified. Lamarck's theory is falsified. The creationist theory is not even wrong. Intelligent design is not a scientific theory (it cannot be empirically falsified). What is left? If you have something to replace the Darwinian-Genetics synthesis, pray let us hear it. The world awaits.

I prefer the attitude of Socrates. Best to say “We don’t know” and start fresh – and honestly – from there.

*by their nature biological theories can never be as "pure" as the fundamental theories in physics. To do genetics you not only have to know the physical state of an organism, you also have know its history. Biological theories encompass contingencies in a way that physics does not.

Even more true for economics and meteorology, yet that never stopped anyone from creating pretty good models for the data. Evolutionists generally don’t create mathematical models for their data because the math always winds up against them. Back in the 1930s, Ronald Fisher and Sewall Wright created a mathematical field within Darwinism called Population Genetics. Here are their findings in a nutshell: (i) beneficial mutations are extremely rare, (ii) in large populations, beneficial mutations are simply a deviation away from the normal gene frequency in the rest of the population, and will therefore tend to get swamped out just by sheer numbers, (iii) therefore, to take over a population, there must be many beneficial mutations occurring within a very short time, lest some of them get swamped – highly unlikely, (iv) the purpose of natural selection is as a conserving force: its main purpose is not to select for advantageous mutants and push them along to take over the population, but rather to weed out mutants in order to keep the population stable.

These findings all contradict Darwinist expectations and assumptions, yet they did not make Fisher and Wright any less enthusiastic about Darwinism.

The reason Darwinism hasn’t been “refuted” is for the same reason that Global Warming hasn’t been “refuted”: fanatics for both simply interpret all evidence as evidence in their favor. There's no arguing with religion, whether it's called Islam, Global Warming, or Darwinism.

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